I am down,only if the winner can use A.D’s Bentley with no limits on mileage or the condition of the back seat for a weekend,and no questions about the substances in the back seat or on the head liner,
Great idea ALLTEX,
I am down,only if the winner can use A.D’s Bentley with no limits on mileage or the condition of the back seat for a weekend,and no questions about the substances in the back seat or on the head liner,
Great idea ALLTEX,
Well, this is the first chance I’ve had to sit down with enough time to actually do the xactimate, and i’m too tired to do it. going to bed, i guess i missed the deadline for the contest.
I found it quite interesting that 3 of the 5 that were submitted were within $187.91, with 2 of them separated by $17.60.
I do have a few questions about some of the estimates.
The re-nailing of the roof sheathing. Is this something that you get on every claim? I’m not sure how you would get this approved since most tearoffs don’t really disrupt the sheathing, at least not that I’ve seen.
A 4/12 does not require 2 layers of felt. I have recently discovered this first hand. I had one that was figured as a 3/12 which was actually a 4/12. I had a little disagreement with my boss over it so I went back and checked it and I had made a mistake when I checked my slope. I then went back and reread the code and I was mistaken.
Laddervader - I assume that is one that you have put in yourself. I don’t recall seeing that one there.
Same with hard hats. I also wonder about charging for those on each and every claim (along with safety glasses). How often do you get them approved and are these actual line items or added?
Why no base service charges?
Do you have any trouble getting the 8hr labor for harness protection approved? How often is it approved? What problems do you have getting it approved, if any? Do you use any supporting documentation?
Tarps. This is one that I was actually going to include. They are used all the time and should be added. Is the 400SF amount standard or do you have any particular way you figure it? How often is this approved?
If you can get that approved more power to you. It looks nice but realistically how often would you get that approved?
I/W code. I actually looked this up. Well, I checked the average daily temperature in January in Orem, UT and it was 31 degrees, which the code says doesn’t require I/W. However, apparently I should have asked them specifically while I had them on the phone whether they required it or not.
Chimney replaced? Let me understand this. We have a brick chimney that is damaged by hail? While I am not knocking the idea I find it a little incredible that would be approved or if it could even be proven or how one goes about proving that.
Build date confirm. Could you elaborate as to why?
Cumulative O&P. I know that Xactimate has a way to turn cumulative O&P on. I have actually gotten cumulative O&P paid once, but I was using the National Estimator, which figures it that way. Is there someplace where this is discussed in writing?
are you going to post the estimates so we can all see?
I was expecting to see something about pre a 1978 house with side walls, the RRP requirement about encapsulating the wpork area, HEPA vac requirements, etc. Was any of that included? Anybody in the contest RRP certified? That adds hundreds to each estimate/job.
I have been following this site all season and this is my first post. 98% of our work volume is Insurance Restoration Work with 95% of that being Storm Damage Work. We are probably the biggest Storm Damage Restoration Contractor in Northwest IN. I am very interested in taking part in this contest and to actually see what everyone else is scoping in Xactimate as majority of all Adjustors hate us! LOL But after a while of dealing with them on a regular basis they just ask for our bid and write up the claim on a per bid basis meaning they just use our bid with no problem. Majority of the time we are way higher than the adjustor or another contractor.
*Not likely all will be approved but I will have more room to negotiate. Some adjusters (IA’s anyway) will see they can legitimately submit their estimate based on mine (often have) allowing for some deductions and make addl $. Some will get frustrated and after cutting down some will agree to it and move on. Some will say (have said) I’m out of my mind but each of them ended up paying more than they initially estimated after I made sure all items were accounted for - which was my inital goal! I never submit anything that I don’t believe is legitimate. Some of the add on’s may be considered weak but if I see any substance for including them, I’m going to do so. *
*Under the “Current Adopted Codes” it shows: Ice Shield Under-Layment Required Yes. Orem inspections said 2’ in from interior wall so I figured it at 6’ up considering width of soffits. orem.org/building-safety-mai … pted-codes *
*All in the presentation. On the two in the past that I billed for and did get paid, I believed both had legitmate damage (cheap/weak brick originally installed) and felt it should be repaired and ins reluctantly agreed. Chimney 1 damage was only on exposed two sides above roof line - $8,200 R&R. Other chimney (smaller) had been slightly wacked by a tree and also damaged (south and west exposures above roof line) by large hail - $3,650 R&R.
The first one was easier than the second. By comparing the exposed sections above roof line to the protected sections below the roof line it was easy enough to conclude that the larger hail had blasted the bricks. Both adjusters initial refusal to pay was based on proveability. I suggested they prove it was not hail damage and they could not. Felt not one once of guilt afterwards for a job well done and an extremely happy customer. Initial adjuster estimate on first one: $8,000. My final bill on completion: $44,978.*
RRP potential fine = $37,500
I want to be sure of the build date (pre or post 78) so I know whether or not I need to concern myself with RRP - regardless of what the job entails. Even if all I need to do is call the local municipality to get the build date, I’m going to charge ins for it, for my own protection if nothing else. If know the house is 80 years old…I’m still going to charge to confirm on paper for my records (documentation). Will they pay it? Maybe, maybe not but if I never ask for it I’ll never get it. Same thing applies to damaged chimneys, O&P, etc. P&C ins is aware that addl RRP compliance costs are involved and some are rumored to have already started calculating those costs into their premiums.
*I wrote about that in The Playbook under “Overhead and Profit Issues”. Paying a straight 20% as opposed to a culmulative 20% is done using P&C ins. fuzzy math and saves them alot of $$$.
I operate under the philosophy that adjusters are going to pay much better and argue much less with a contractor who is not afraid to confront them with the facts, substantive “agruments”, reality and pro contractor repair rates - and lots of legitimate spelled out line items. I’ve seen it over and over. The adjuster will pay for more work per job at more money to the confident and competent contractor knowing they will make up the difference on the next 9 they meet with that week who are less experienced.
With 3RStimax, although I have pictures, diagrams, etc, I rarely would send them in with my estimate. Adjusters will have their own copies with their files so sending mine would be redundant. On several rare occassions, I would post pics, diagrams on a web page and direct the adjuster/in house claim rep to view them there.
Also, using 3RStimax, even the less experienced contractor is going to be able to write his/her estimate more effciently and more profitably and because all (most) of the line items are there in plain site, line items should not be missed. All they have to do is type in the Quantity and the RTA Price/Per (at RTA rates applicable for their area) and the total for each line will show up under the RTA Total column.
On this one I would have told the customer already that getting the chimney repairs paid for is touch and go and to not count on it.
Even though I stand by my belief that O&P is owed on every job at 100%, I want to include as many trades as possible - just in case… On this job I have roofing, masonry, electrical. I can even throw in scaffolding from outside provider if it makes economic sense to do so. If I need to spend $300 addl to involve a scaffolding provider in order to pickup $1,000 in addl O&P, for example, that I would otherwise miss out on, I’m going to hire the outside scaffolding company do at least do a set up. The key here though is in making sure that the electician (mast R&R) and the outside scaffolding guy/company don’t slow down the roof install & other work.
If “No Damage P&C, Inc.” doesn’t pay for the chimney repair, I’ve already warned the customer that ins may deny it so they’re not going to get angry with me.
I need to read slower.
"4. Build date confirm. Could you elaborate as to why?"
Larry is including RRP costs. Doing a dormer can cause costs to rise $300.00-$600.00 each if the siding is being disturbed. You need to have the RRP certificate just to work on them. Old painted valley? Old painted chimney flashing? Fascia?
EPA is currently auditiing contractor’s books to see if any roofing, painint, remodeling, etc is being done on pre-1978 homes. Your paperwork better be in order! They’re fining based on documentation more than catching us in the field on the job.
Holy Crap LMB. I wish I could see the adjusters face when they get your estimate. I would also love to hear the conversations that you have defending your pricing.
I’m not looking at this as a contest as much as I am a learning experience. I vote you go ahead and submit one for the benefit of us all. I think I have learned something from every estimate that has been submitted and I thank everyone who has participated thus far. Ray, Great Idea! We will have to do more.
This is a line item I found on a public adjusters estimate. I have never used it but it makes total sense when you think about how much time the installers must spend renailing or driving down nails so that the surface is smooth.
**Code clearly states that from 2/12 to 4/12 pitch 2 layers of felt are required.
R905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel to and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles to seal. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles to seal. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).**
It is one that another contractor and I have been using. He has been pretty good at getting it approved.
Just Came up with this one after reading the OSHA guidelines. (the waters have yet to be tested but in my mind it makes sense.)
I have the base sercive charges factored in. Which is how they are surveyed and in my oppinion how they should be included in an estimate.
I’m not looking at this as a contest as much as I am a learning experience. I vote you go ahead and submit one for the benefit of us all. I think I have learned something from every estimate that has been submitted and I thank everyone who has participated thus far. Ray, Great Idea! We will have to do more.[/quote]
That sums it up in a nutshell. It’s all about sharing and contributing.
“This is a line item I found on a public adjusters estimate. I have never used it but it makes total sense when you think about how much time the installers must spend renailing or driving down nails so that the surface is smooth.”
To me, renailing the sheathing is a requirement. It’s included in my pricing every time. A loose 8cc isn’t going to stay in by knocking it down if it came loose after being 1-3/4" in the rafter before. It’s imperative to slip another 8 in an adjacent grain of the sheathing to renail the deck andd tighten the loose one. Unless you like going back to see why a nail popped up.
I have posted a second estimate which deviates from the guidelines I restricted myself too in the first estimate.
There are also more notes on this one explaining the changes as if I was discussing with another adjuster from a contractors perspective.
Also I posted a pdf of the city of Orems website that shows that IWS is required. The pdf printer kind of jumbled it up a bit.
You can find it here as well orem.org/building-safety-mai … pted-codes
Let me know if you have any questions. And I have not done a roof in a long time so the second estimate is more opinion than anything but I believe it produces an estimate that 95% of the roofing companies I deal with would be able to work with.
One of the perks of being an adjuster is I get to see lots and lots of different contractors estimates. Sometimes on the same claim.
I see estimates from contractors from nearly every state. Many times submitted well before the adjuster gets involved. That estimate of yours will put you in the top .00000000001% of the market.
The policy does not owe that price regardless of what agreement you have with the homeowner prior to the adjuster involvement.
HO-0003 Policy-Section I Conditions-3. Loss Settlement -
b) Buildings under Coverage A or B at replacement cost without deduction for depreciation subject to the following.
…(80% requirement) …we will pay the cost to repair or replace, after application of deductible and without deduction for depreciation, but not more than the least of the following amounts:
a) the limit of liability under this policy that applies to the building;
b) the replacement cost of that part of the building damaged for like construction and use on the same premises; or
c) the necessary amount actually spent to repair or replace the damaged building.
We will pay no more than the actual cash value of the damage until actual repair or replacement is complete. Once actual re-pair or replacement is complete, we will settle the loss according to the provisions of b.(1) and b.(2) above. (b.2 refers to policies that are under insured and therefore ACV only)
One could reasonably content that that estimate is more than necessary based on the fact that it will be the most expensive bid in the market by far.
If insurance were taken out of the equation no reasonable homeowner would ever pay that when there are many other perfectly good contractors who are significantly less.
You could have an insured that signed the contract with a team of lawyers present in front of the local judge and it would not hold up.
And same insured agreed to assist you and was willing and eager to pursue litigation on your behalf after the supplement that was turned down after much haggling and re-inspections it would still likely not hold up.
The lawsuit would likely be filed for breach of contract and bad faith. In the early stages a motion would be file for summary judgment for the insurer based on
Section I Conditions
8. Suit against us. No action can be brought unless the policy provisions have been complied with and the action is started within on year after the date of loss.
Assuming that it is in fact less than one year pre date of loss and no other endorsement or local or state law amends the 1 year statute the Appraisal Clause would be invoke by the insurer essentially taking it out of your hands, the hands of the insured, and the hands of the adjuster.
Two independent people would set the amount of the loss. If by some miracle the insured used another company using your program the adjuster’s appraiser I assure you would not.
Between the two appraisers and the umpire the loss would be set more in line with actual market values.
While I applaud your creativity and well thought out explanations to back your price I do not see how this price could be something that will get through often enough to be an effective way to base a business model.
I may get through a few times with temps or the occasional IA who have managers overloaded or not paying attention but that’s it.
The policy does not owe a price just because a contractor has a signed sealed contract. It owes based on reason, market value, and the law.
This is why some insurance companies if they disagree with a contractors estimate they will have other people bid the job. This may be an overused tactic but in certain situations it can provide an unbiased average to assist in setting the loss when a contractor is well outside of the norm.
In the situation of this exercise if your estimate was the signed airtight contract and the others were merely comparison bids I do not believe there is a court, judge, insurance commission on this planet that would agree that the policy owes that price.
All that being said I see a lot of interesting points in all these estimates (even yours LMB ) please feel free to give me any feedback or opinions on mine.
I intentionally did not include the OSHA safety stuff because I rarely ever see it requested from contractors and most of it came about well after I quit roofing.
In fairness to Larry his estimate does include rebuilding the chimney. If you remove that from his estimate it takes his estimate down to roughly $19,300.00. Could that be sold to a homeowner if it wasn’t insurance? Depends on how good a sales presenter he is. It is approximately 25-30% higher than the average of all the estimates (not including the chimney). I have sold jobs for 25-30% higher than the next closest bidder so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that he could get the job done. Xactware’s white paper, “Roofing Prices Within Xactimate” states “if Xactware’s published cost is near the middle, the prices available to the market will range by approximately 27% above and below the reported price.” That would place his cost within the upper end of the range that even Xactimate says is possible. I don’t think there is a one of us who wouldn’t want all of our jobs priced there.
I see only one problem with this. The insurer agreed to pay replacement cost value and not market value.
I see a common denominator in both of these transactions. That is the market. There’s an interesting little discussion I have with homeowners when we are discussing insurance pricing. This usually comes about when the homeowner is told to get 3 bids. I explain to them if they call 20 different contractors they are going to get 20 different prices. I believe Ray’s little exercise has proven the validity of that statement as we have 8 different estimates and 8 different prices.
What ultimately determines the market value? I would say that when a buyer and a seller shake hands and sign a contract that is the market value. I would say the same thing about replacement cost. When the contractor and the homeowner shake hands and sign a contract that is the replacement cost. The replacement cost is determined by the contract price.
I believe there is a misconception among insurers about what exactly is encompassed in RCV. RCV is more than just having someone tear off your old roof and slap on a new one. Value to a homeowner is going to be making sure that the job is done right, that the contractor is licensed and insured, that the contractor will take care of anything he breaks and the contractor will be there if there is a problem. Those things all have value to a homeowner and those are not things that can be estimated with estimating software. The only ones who can really place a value on those items is the homeowners themselves. That is why we can sell jobs 25-30% higher than the next highest bidder. We give the homeowner more value than the lower guy.
As far as your estimates go I just kind of chuckled at the Adjuster’s hat estimate. Your second one was much better and I liked the explanations. I hope you don’t mind if I borrow some of them.
Your two estimates are very revealing though. You stated in your Adjuster’s Hat estimate that it “should adhere to some field adjuster guidelines.” Your second estimate, while still the lowest of the legitimate estimates, was within the 27% range to the lower side. That makes me wonder what exactly is in those guidelines that makes an insurance adjustment $4,000 lower than the average of bids from competent contractors. To me that gives a whole lot of credibility to what Larry teaches in his Playbook about the P&C insurance industry.
I guess insurance companies know that for every homeowner who hires a knowledgeable contractor they are going to have 9 that don’t. If we use our exercise as a sample then insurance companies are going to save $4,000 on 9 out of every 10 claims. That is $36,000 per 10 claims. That would get into the millions fairly quickly. I guess I can see how that might motivate them to low-ball claims adjustments. It certainly isn’t the moral thing to do. Then again an insurance company is merely a lifeless corporation. A lifeless corporation is only going to have the morals of the people who run it.
Les Gougem aka AD,
Nice opening statement!!!
Why did you use 15% waste along with the starter and ridge?
Would you really detach and reset the overhead power?
What is your reasoning for applying base service charges the way you did?
Why did you use high profile ridge shingles? What about the labor to install those Ridge shingles. Would you agree that there is a considerably more labor involved in installing the ridge shingles than there is the field?
Where or how did you come up with valley metal
I really like that you used the “retrospin” for the overhead power.
Why do you only ask for the actual fee from the city? Doesn’t someone have to take the time to go to the city fill out paperwork and wait for a permit etc. is the contractors time not worth something?
Really nice job with the repainting of the fascia. I have never seen it put that way but it totally makes sense.
The Addition of the ventilation is somewhere I certainly need work. Thanks for posting the calculator as well.
What is your reasoning for applying base service charges the way you did?
I really like the labor productivity loss line item.
Are you really going to detach and reset the overhead power?
Why the double laminated starter?
Why the high profile ridge?
Why did you use valley metal? Did you know waste was already calculated in the line item? You can check in the components list and it will show you how much is being allowed…
Why Gutter apron? Waste….
What is the additional step flashing for? Step flashing is included in the chimney flashing line item.
All of these line items were painted. You could improve your estimate by a few hundred dollars with just the paint line items.
Why did you use a dumpster in addition to the removal of shingles line item?
Really nice job on using the tarps to protect shrubs windows etc. I will be using this in the future…
What can I say!!! Your estimate is very thought provoking, but I will say this you do raise a lot of questions that need to be answered. (SPALLING IS NOT A COVERED PERIL)
Our roof estimates are very close. It all depends on the user. Xact can be a friend too…
I find it very interesting that you worked up two estimates and they were both very different. I have been on both sides of the fence too and know how hard it is to have to follow a particular carriers rules even if they do not correspond with my own beliefs.
Thank you for your additional information it will help us all with our reasoning behind using those various line items.
Correct me if I am wrong but on your “roofers” estimate it appears you factored out base service charges, what is your reasoning behind that?
I am Not really sure your painting and framing minimum charges would accurately reflect the market pricing…
I really liked the way you handled the overhead power.
Your temp services needs some work. The tarps on this roof were over 300 in costs just for the material 2- 30x40 tarps.
Would the contractors time and effort to acquire a permit not be an applicable cost?
Nice cover letter. Why did you not use rfgarmvn in your estimate. As soon as an adjuster sees you attempt that he will think to himself what is this guy trying to pull…
Really nice on the OSHA line items.
I like the use of additional material but sometimes it can be a little much. You have to be talking to someone who really cares before they are going to take the time to go through the information.
Why did so many of you not think to ask for the additional layer of felt?
The code reads as follows.
R905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel to and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36-inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles to seal. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Distortions in the underlayment shall not interfere with the ability of the shingles to seal. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).
Read the code carefully again. Code also requires some sort of waste due to overlaps.
It might only be 50 or 100 bucks more profit, but it all adds up at the end of the year…
Awesome job guys this will put additional money in each and every one of our pockets.
I find it interesting that you said that. When an adjuster tells me the can find 10 different companies that will do the work for what his estimate is, I immediately let them know that “those companies must not know what they are doing then” If they did their estimate would be in line with mine. This is a major proplem. It is excercises like this that will get more of us on the same page and not just out trying to lowball to try to get work.
I am curious as to your thoughts on my estimate. I havn’t gotten much feedback.
Of the line items in my estimate are there any that completly do not make any sense? I will admit there is some fluff but fluff is good if the reasoning behind it is pure. I am still trying to wrap my head around all the OSHA stuff.
Each of us have different expectations. This is why all of the estimates are a little different. My expectations are grandiose. I have found it is worth it to try to dot all of my I’s and Cross all of my T’s. If I do the adjuster on the other end of the line cannot come up with a valid arguement. I win most of the time. The main difference is I try to prepare for the battle before I get in the ring. Education is key. The more you know the more you will expect.
I have learned a lot and hope to learn a lot more.
You are correct on a couple things.
First off I was unfair in my response to LMB. That chimney does make a big difference. While i still believe that price is rather high removing the chimney does bring it at least in the stratusphere of the others.
LMB I apologize. Lets just say its been a long couple days for this adjuster.
Like I said the first estimate is one you will see from many field adjusters.
I wrote the second more from a contractors position perhaps after the initial conversation when a price is trying to be determined.
I wonder is part of this little exercise could include actually pricing everything out and trying to find what the exact cost for labor and materials would be. With that factored you could see what each estimate has left of for O&P.
My second estimate has no bsc’s and only the O&P thats included in the line items themselves.
In my experience most local roofing companies will come in under my second estimate.
You have to think of it from the adjusters perspective too. We will see literally thousands of claims a year in spurts from certain areas
We see the trends and know what the work is usually being done for.
The contractor is absolutely entitled to a fair profit for the job. But we are entitled to fair pricing as well. I will always make every effort to work with an insureds contractor to reach an agreement because they want someone who they trust working on their home. But if that its not working then sometimes other steps must be taken to make sure the claim is settled properly.
While I know xactimate estimates based on the mid point with a very wide range in truth I find that if you segment the contractors into three categories you will find the price range much less.
I would split them into the following:
1- True General Contractors
2- Insurance restoration Contractors(or specialist if you prefere)
3- True Sub Contractors or trade specialist.
Essentially the GC group will be the highest as they have the highest over head cost. They also will incur labor and material cost but the overhead and profitt of the sub they higher.
The middle group is more a gray area. These are the companies I will get the most push for supplements.
This model combines elements of 1 and 3 and provides much flexibility to work on a myriad of claims.
Lastly you have the tradesman. This is the roofer that has been in business for 20 years since he took over full time from his father who worked in the same area for another 35 befire that. Far from a chuck in a truck he has pride in his work is well know in town
My second estimate I would bet would exceed most in category 3 and would be a price most of the middle can make a proffit on.
You have to think I may see 200+ claims in a month.
Forgive me If I put my fut down a time or two when the last 3 estimates I paid within $500 in each direction of the first one.
Glad you liked some of the explanations. I always seem to come up with good ones when I argue with myself.
Typing on phone must be slow. You made several posts while I was typing.
I didnt go for double felt because its not really required on a 4 pitch.
Simply put. 2-4 is double felt. 4 - whatever is single.
The question is what if its perfectly 4 pitch. I had this come up with a claim. I actually shot it down a couple ways. One it was actually a bit more than 4 pitch. 4.25 is what the gauge said. contractor was going off eagleview.
Second I called to local head inslector and asked. If its perfectly 4 what applies.
He told me single. If I have any doubt about code application I always defer to the person filling out the green or red tag. It will trump any ones opinion of the code any day.