Consulting question for Gtp1003....any other opinions?

In conducting roof inspections, the hardest part (ethically speaking) is the evaluation of nail placement…**How much improper nail placement has to be present in order for the roof not to pass inspection…1, 5, 10,…100 nails? **

**Is it ideal to inspect the entire roof for proper nail placement? ** I typically spot check about 5 spots on each section of the roof (check more on larger roofs). I add up the total nails placed vs the amount installed improperly. Anything over the 90% proper nail placement; I pass.

**GTO100…What is your method? ** And 2nd question…Is there an insurance guidline that evauates a roof claim when a significant amount of improper nail placement may be the cause of a shingles blowning off in less than windy conditions?

There are no opinions!!!

Somebody has to have at least one…

We inspect 4 or 5 spots on each plane. Anything but 100% ends up in a service being opened up.

The NRCA Roofing and Waterproofing Manual -Fifth Edition

Page 341 - Asphalt Shingle Roof Systems

The locations for asphalt shingle fasteners in Figures 7 & 8 and manufacturers’ printed installtion instructions should be recognized as the approximate locations where attachment is intended. Actual consistent fastener placement in the exact locations depicted is not possible in the application of asphalt shingles under normal rooftop conditions. The application of asphalt shingles in a rooftop environment is not an exact process and minor deviations from the intended fastener locations should be anticipated and tolerated.

Dont let the insurance companies lie and state that “incorrect installations, i.e. high nail, nails on sealant lines, etc” are reasons for non coverage. They insured the risk. If they felt the roof should have been replaced before extending insurance coverage then the carrier should have had underwriting send an inspector to the property to inspect before the policy was written and then write a letter to the potential insured that the roof must be replaced before coverage will be written. I could go on for days on this scam but Please utilize all resources available and once all contractors follow a set of standards then insurance companies will follow suit. Carriers know what they owe for… Theyre waiting for contractors to figure it out.

I have inspected atleast 5 shingle per side of the roof and made sure the ventilation is correct. not to my knowledge about insurance claim on a misnailed home normally the falls back to the installer if not call your rep and speak with him or her to find out where they will go and if the will write up a report.

GTP1003… I mention earlier in the year that I was interested in becoming roofing inspector.

In the event that I use the method I described above…and there is a insurance related issue. In your opinion, would I be liable or does it still revert back to the origional installer. My assumption would be that I WOULD have some liability.

This is why I asked the question…should we not inspect every nail could leave me open to lawsuits?

Gee, I honestly don’t know how to answer you. BUt, here’s one I just inspected. Who’s lap it lands in is NOT my business. I just called it as I saw it. What do you think I wrote on my report?[attachment=2]Improperly Nailed Shingles.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]Improperly Nailed Shingles (2).jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]Improperly Nailed Shingles (3).jpg[/attachment]

More.[attachment=2]Improperly Nailed Shingles (4).jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]Improperly Nailed Shingles (5).jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]Improperly Nailed Shingles (6).jpg[/attachment]

Tinner,
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but most of those photos do not appear to be improperly nailed shingles, they appear to be damaged shingles that are missing a portion of the shingle for one reason or another. The photo of the hump in the shingles appears to me to be possibly where the fastener for the decking has somehow released.
Guys, please help me to see what is actually being documented in those photos.
Thanks.

On a 30 square roof, you’d have over 10,000 nails. Do you honestly expect you could inspect each and every one?

If you want to cover your butt, I’d recommend you write up something describing how you WILL inspect the roofs and what criteria you’ll use. If you’re really concerned, hire an attorney to look over your documentation and get some consultation. You might even look at an E&O policy to provide you with some coverage.

Mr. Dad…that was exactly my point. As inspectors, should we be required to inspectall 10,000 nails to cover our arses.

And yes I would definately be required to get E & O insurance. The only difficult thing I see in roofing inspection is the nailing issue. The pictures above speak for themselves 1st… the nailing issues (I didn’t see any either)becomes secondary.

You also made a good point on “describing the my methods of inspections” (I did not think of that one)…That would definately offer me some immediatle protection…Thank you. I agree with the lawyer consultation as well…that is part of my plan when I am ready to make te splash.

[quote=“ALLTEX Roofing”]Tinner,
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but most of those photos do not appear to be improperly nailed shingles, they appear to be damaged shingles that are missing a portion of the shingle for one reason or another. The photo of the hump in the shingles appears to me to be possibly where the fastener for the decking has somehow released.
Guys, please help me to see what is actually being documented in those photos.
Thanks.[/quote]

The majority of the issues on this roof are caused by improperly nailed shingles. With 5" exposure, the nail line is 5-9/16" up. This whole roof was high-nailed.[attachment=0]Improperly Nailed Shingles (3).jpg[/attachment]
Can’t you see the nail placement, versus the clearly marked nail line? This is just another good example of jackleg roofing.
The hump is another issue caused by improper nailing. THe decking should have been renailed with the new 8cc nails 1/4" from the old nails to; a.- refasten the decking, b.- tighten the existing nails so they won’t lift.

The entire roof is a failure due to installer error. Whether or not the insurance will help? I don’t know. The roofer should come back and do it again for free. Not that I’d want that crew back on my house!

When the installer can’t even drive nails in the correct place, do you think he has a clue about flashing? Nail placement can give you some clue as to the condition of the rest of the roof. This fool didn’t even clip the valley shingles.

Tinner - I saw the problem right away. It actually concerns me that a few of the guys on here didn’t see any nailing issues. Yikes!

My 1st question is…what type of material is this. Some material have a lager nailing line. Did we see any nail depression? (indicative of high nailing)…NO! Do they look like thay are in the general spots where nails should be? LOOKS LIKE IT!

But like I said before…the crappy materia and/or defective material super-cedes what might be considered high nailing.

Yeah…I agree though…they look higher than normal.

Tinner,
I did a little research on the product we install and found this. Perhaps that is why i did not notice that the nails were a little higher than recomended on the shingle in your photos. You must also take into account that most likely there was some sort of wind storm in the area that would be proximate cause of the damage. That damage was perhaps exagerated a bit due to the bad installation.

I wish you the best with this situation and hope you are able to get the insurance company to follow through with their obligation to the homeowner.

[quote=“Roofer Gee”]In conducting roof inspections, the hardest part (ethically speaking) is the evaluation of nail placement…**How much improper nail placement has to be present in order for the roof not to pass inspection…1, 5, 10,…100 nails? **

**Is it ideal to inspect the entire roof for proper nail placement? ** I typically spot check about 5 spots on each section of the roof (check more on larger roofs). I add up the total nails placed vs the amount installed improperly. Anything over the 90% proper nail placement; I pass.

**GTO100…What is your method? ** And 2nd question…Is there an insurance guidline that evauates a roof claim when a significant amount of improper nail placement may be the cause of a shingles blowning off in less than windy conditions?[/quote]

Roofer Gee,
As you know improper nail placement is a problem. It can significantly impact the life of the roof and may very well void the wind portion of the warranty for the shingles. The level of exposure you are opening yourself up to would depend on who you are inspecting for. Are you going to be inspecting for a roofing company, insurance company as an adjuster, insurance company for underwriting, or a homeowner.

Clearly defining your process from the start will help. E and O insurance is to my knowledge usually only available to individuals that carry a license of some sort. Typically you see E and O carried by Real estate agents/ inspectors, Insurance agents/ adjusters etc. You could possibly get a bond to help with issues that could possibly come up, but it ultimately depends on who you are performing the inspections for.

As for your second question, there is possibly some back office memo floating around with regard to improper installation. As you know a homeowners insurance policy is a contract and if you read a typical policy front to back it may not even mention roof or roofing at all. The HOA policy I just reviewed does not even mention installation defects. There are many adjusters out there that are willing to sell their soul for their job. They tell lies and manipulate software and try to create doubt in the homeowners mind. They are the real problem. Ultimately, if the Insurance company writes the policy and extends coverage and accepts premium dollars for a particular type of loss without following a proper underwriting process (property inspection) and that loss occurs they should be held to a higher standard and be required Indemnify that customer. The improper nail placement is not the proximate cause of the loss. It takes more than Improper nail placement for shingles to blow off of a roof. It takes some sort of windstorm and most homeowners polices provide windstorm coverage. As I stated in an earlier post improper installation will tend to exagerate the damage. If a roof is still covered under the manufacturers warranty and if a storm rolls through the area with high winds and or hail (both of which are usually covered under the policy) some small hail hits the roof and does very little if any damage, the winds are above the manufacturers limits as stated in the warranty but there is no apparant damage and now the roof warranty is void, has the homeowner suffered a loss that should be covered under the policy. Insurance companies will say no, some might say I dont know, but people who understand would say yes.

Just use good judgement in all you do and take the time to think through your situations and you shouldn’t have many problems.

Best of luck to you.

No problem Alltex. I couldn’t find any wind damage on this one. Ins. probably won’t cover it either.
Any as for manufacturer defects, as a certified GAF installer, and inspector for GAF on many jobs, the first chore was to pull a few shingles on any questionable issue. The shingles first test criteria to pass was the nail placement test. A little gauge was placed on the bottom of the shingle. If the nail wasn’t off more than 3/8", and if there was only one off per shingle, it moved on to the next test. If they failed the first test, it was an automatic installation error.

Take a good look at the pic you posted too. That specifies that the nails are to be placed 7/16" from the upper edge of the exposed area. No more, no less. The nail heads are 7/16" wide or wider. The nail heads should be almost exposed to the elements and you can never use EG for that because they will rust off. HDD only!

I’ll have to confess I wrong on one point; “With 5” exposure, the nail line is 5-9/16" up.“
I had thought 7/16” to 9/16" and as posted by Alltex, the specs clearly state 7/16" up which means I was off by an 1/8".

Truth is, the manufacturers are tired of all the installer errors and are trying to dumb things down for ‘nailers’ by increasing the area somewhat. For ‘roofers’, it hasn’t been an issue because they were nailing correctly.
Same reason I&W is being used anywhere and everywhere.