Xactimate / Adjusters / Eagleview


#1

Has anyone had any experience in dealings with adjusters who simply will not pay out for ridge and or hip cap shingles? I have been running into this issue more and more lately and it is very frustrating. The adjusters are stating that the hip and or ridge cap shingles are included the waste factor for the replacement of shingles.

We recently completed and obviously ordered the correct amount of material on an apartment complex but had we simply gone by the adjusters work scope we would have been short 12 sqs of material which were entirely ridge and hip cap shingles. The adjuster will not budge and pay the additional sqs citing the use of an Eagleview report for his measurements. It is funny that even Eagleview states at the bottom of the square count page that their figures do not include the necessary material needed to replace ridge, hip, starter, and valley material.

I wish Xactimate would take this into consideration and apply/force a line item for hip, ridge, valley and starter shingles to be added to every roofing claim. I know this is most likely wishful thinking but damn all these things are almost always present on the roof and should be paid for when replacing.

Frustrated!!


#2

We run into this about 85% or more of the time. 10% for gable and 15% for hip where it is to cover scrap, starter and hip/ridge cap is accurate only when you’re dealing with very simple roofs.

We combat this in a couple of ways. First, we go to the Adjuster meeting with our estimate in hand. Our estimate includes a waste calculation sheet I created in Excel that takes the data from the Xactimate roof sketch and calculates the number of squares needed to cover starter, cap and the layer of waste under the valley. The only unknown then is scrap. We then apply a waste % to our estimate based upon these calculations. The math is shown and explained on the waste calc sheet which we include with our estimate. We cover this with the Adjuster and attempt to explain it. There are many situations where the material required for the starter, cap and valley underlayer is more than the 10% or 15% waste factor they want to apply to a gable or hip roof respectively. Pretty hard to argue the math.

This often works to some degree. If they don’t agree to it, we insist on knowing what steps we need to take in the event we run short on material. Should we call the Adjuster at that point in time? Supplement after the fact showing our material receipts?

We generally supplement after the fact showing how we estimated the correct amount of material when we presented the estimate up front. I would estimate that we get paid for the full amount of material used on 90% plus of the jobs.

In a way, I understand and empathize with why the insurance companies do this. How often do you think some scumbag roofing contractor tries to cheat them by claiming more material to be paid for than was actually used? That’s why we use the approach we do, i.e., using a fact based process with industry standard numbers and math formulas that can be explained and understood.

The other advantage to this is it allows us to order materials and be very, very accurate.

Send your Eagleview report for this job to me as an attachment to an email. I will run it through the spread sheet and provide you with the results which will hopefully aid you in your argument.

I would add that I often tell the Adjuster that Eagleview isn’t that accurate as they often miss the pitches. We have our own Pictometry license and I’ll pull an image, run our own measurements and compare them with those on the Eagleview report. You should also note that Eagleview talks about being accurate to within 5%. Okay, 100 square roof means they can be off by 5 squares and still be within their own specified accuracy. We are arguing one right now on a 50 square very cut up roof where the Desk Adjuster got both an Eagleview and Geoestimate. Both of these companies missed the pitch. We just sent one of our guys out to take pictures of the pitch gage on the roof. We’re off about 3 squares from both of them. This roof has a pitch transition change about 3 feet in from the perimeter where it transitions from a 10 to a 5. This is very difficult to see from the aerial images and I suspect that is why EV and Geo both got the pitch wrong.


#3

Your Eagleview said 6,043 SF. I got the takeoffs from Pictometry, sketched it in Xactimate and came up with 6,325.46 SF. After plugging in the numbers in the waste calc sheet, I came up with 8.54 SQ for ridge cap, starter and the layer under the valley. This does not include scrap. They should have used around 17.5% waste factor for this roof. By my calculations, it should have taken around 74.33 squares for this roof. They probably paid you for 66.33 squares.

I did not include the little flat roof area which was 96 SF according to the Eagle View Report. It appears this was included in their 6,043 SF total. If that is true, the actual total for shingles would be 5,947 SF. Add 10% waste factor and you get 6,542 or 65.42 SQ. By my calculations, you got shorted just shy of 9 squares.

If you left me an email, I’ll send the Pictometry aerial image with takeoffs and the Xactimate sketch to you along with the waste calc sheet all in pdf format.


#4

You didn’t include your email. Let me see if I can insert the images into this post and if so, you can copy them from here. If this works, it will show the Pictometry Ortho with takeoffs, the Xactimate sketch and the waste calc sheet. You may note that I didn’t take the time to measure precisely the distances from the edges and between the dormers. I did all of this rather quickly. That wouldn’t affect the roof area though, it simply may look a bit different than the aerial image.

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=367&image_id=1303

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=367&image_id=1304

http://www.roofing.com/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=367&image_id=1302


#5

What material are you taking off and replacing?


#6

[quote=“oldtimerroofing”]Has anyone had any experience in dealings with adjusters who simply will not pay out for ridge and or hip cap shingles? I have been running into this issue more and more lately and it is very frustrating. The adjusters are stating that the hip and or ridge cap shingles are included the waste factor for the replacement of shingles.

We recently completed and obviously ordered the correct amount of material on an apartment complex but had we simply gone by the adjusters work scope we would have been short 12 sqs of material which were entirely ridge and hip cap shingles. The adjuster will not budge and pay the additional sqs citing the use of an Eagleview report for his measurements. It is funny that even Eagleview states at the bottom of the square count page that their figures do not include the necessary material needed to replace ridge, hip, starter, and valley material.

I wish Xactimate would take this into consideration and apply/force a line item for hip, ridge, valley and starter shingles to be added to every roofing claim. I know this is most likely wishful thinking but damn all these things are almost always present on the roof and should be paid for when replacing.

Frustrated!![/quote]

Xactware isn’t likely to “force” a line item for hip, ridge, valley, etc. because doing so would be frowned upon by their ultimate parent company - P&C ins companies (after ISO, Inc. and Verisk Analytics, Inc.). I’ve been wondering lately if Xactware’s relatively recent stronger stance against paying some items that were previously paid for in the past is a pre-emptive attempt to keep pricing as low as possible (below even mid level market rates) knowing that the likelyhood of having to additionally/eventually pay for RRP and OSHA costs is high.

Since Xactware was purchased by ISO, Inc. several years ago, the pressure on them to keep pricing low has increased dramatically. Still, that hasn’t changed the cost of doing ins repair work the right way. As more and more contractors become wise to how the Xact gang has been generally underpaying for years, they are becoming less inclined to buy into the myth that Xactimate is an industry standard for anyone other than the insurance industry.

With Eagleview as a working partner, why would anyone expect their estimates to necessarily be anymore accurate than Xactimates? Eagleview’s disclaimer (their figures do not include the necessary material needed to replace ridge, hip, starter, and valley material) would seem to be an attempt, at least, to place their replationship/partnership with Xactware at arms length but as several have pointed out, any under estimate by either when accepted by any contractor can be costly.

We all know what is required for a full and proper roof R&R and so does Xactware. They just don’t seem to want to pay for it even though insured’s were promised that full and proper R&R is the standard they should expect.

“wish Xactimate would take this into consideration”…enough of Xactimate already! I would sooner buy AD a new work truck than pay a penny to unecessarily purchase any Xactware product. They don’t dictate to me what real repair work costs, especially when I (and many others) know what their pricing is based on - lower than RTA market rates. Big Box home improvement store pricing on materials that are often lower quality and lower labor rates based on “surveys” of low estimates and/or “preferred” contractor pricing is not RTA which is what insured’s premiums are based upon.

ISO, Inc./Xactware, Inc. is upset with me and my estimating program because it is simple to use and easy to understand. They also know it is effective, prices properly (at RTA for any area), allows for inclusion of all line items and always adds in O&P on 100% of the claim. Every estimate I’ve ever turned in on my program has always gotten me substantially more $$$ than anything Xactimate ever offered. When the ins co writes out the checks at my prices, they are agreeing that my prices at higher than Xactimate numbers are correct. Their product costs, on average, $1,200 per year per user. Mine, on the other hand, costs nothing - ever, since I am now giving it out to any licensed contractor or related professional who asks for a copy.

Based on an Excel spread sheet, it does everything a contractor needs while forgoing all of the techno goobledygook and unnecessary CAD programs found in insurance industry preferred estimating software. One of Xactware’s reps claimed my estimating program was “identical” to theirs - it’s not. They also claimed that, under its previous name, MAXtimate, it was an infringement of their trademark. Then, without proving their claim and knowing full well that I owned the trademark, ISO, Inc. paid Network Solutions to register Maxtimate.com as one of their own domain names. Sleazy.

Why use a remodel/repair estimating program that is mandated for use by the very people whose repair estimates are below RTA values 99.99% of the time? When you do, you are shooting yourself in the foot with the insurance companies own gun. There is no requirement, legal or otherwise, that you use the same estimating program that insurance adjusters use to estimate the repair costs of any given job. Using the same estimating program as adjusters doesn’t make you appear more professional in their eyes or in the eyes of in house claims representatives and it won’t get your claims paid faster or better. You also don’t need (and don’t need to pay for) the fancy and complicated but unnecessary CAD produced diagrams included with their estimates - the adjusters and in house claim reps already have them.

Xactimate…Schmactimate


#7

Authentic_Dad,

Just wanted to say Ive been reading your posts and thank you for the heads up on the trends of Insurance replacement service.
I would really love to get a copy of your estimating spread sheet. I use EagleView a lot but I do not care for Xactimate and have been creating my own estimates for several years now. It would be nice to see what bugs youve worked out.

Thanks Again

Justin Beard


#8

[/quote]

Larry, I’d really like a new F250, Diesel, all decked out, etc… I’ll go pick it out tomorrow, could you call me with your credit card please?


#9

[quote=“ForceShield”]Authentic_Dad,

Just wanted to say Ive been reading your posts and thank you for the heads up on the trends of Insurance replacement service.
I would really love to get a copy of your estimating spread sheet. I use EagleView a lot but I do not care for Xactimate and have been creating my own estimates for several years now. It would be nice to see what bugs youve worked out.

Thanks Again

Justin Beard[/quote]

Justin, I would be happy to send you the waste calc sheet, just PM me or send an email.


#10

Larry, I’d really like a new F250, Diesel, all decked out, etc… I’ll go pick it out tomorrow, could you call me with your credit card please?[/quote]

You forgot to tell me what color…


#11

I have never found fault with Eagleview except for the new prices. These posts are great for consideration. As far as insurance adjusters, they are usually in over their heads. Insurance adjusters would be best served by utilizing A PROFESSIONAL ROOF CONSULTANT for their claims and investigations. It would save so much time and money for them, the homeowners, and especially for the much respected Roofing Contractors. Travelers Insurance! CALL ME!


#12

March 2, 2009 - EagleView and Xactware team up to revolutionize roof dimensioning

ok, uh huh, and…


#13

Authenic Dad:

Great information. Can you send me a copy of your calc sheet. As a new user i’m unable to PM you for some reason. Thanks, David


#14

[quote=“catastrophe”]Authenic Dad:

Great information. Can you send me a copy of your calc sheet. As a new user i’m unable to PM you for some reason. Thanks, David[/quote]

David, I’d be glad to. However, being an old user doesn’t make me clairvoyant and able to pull your email addy out of the sky. LOL


#15

AD,

If your sharing it, I would like to get a copy of your waste calc. spreadsheet. If you will just email it.

Dwight@aroofnow.com

thanks :slight_smile:


#16

AD, Since I am a new user, I am not able to PM you. Can you send me your excel spreadsheet please? My email address is:

joe[at]designspell[dot]com

Your posts have been some of the best on this forum. Thank you for all the input you give to this community!

Joe


#17

Hey Guys,

I am new to this forum and I am an adjuster. We get frustrated as well as we do not set the parameters of what the software estimates the carriers do. There are ways to put in for valley, ridge cap , ice water dam etc. on Xact.

Most independent adjusters want to write the estimate including the most because it benefits us as well. We do encounter roofing contractors from time to time that are hard to deal with. Most are great and understand that we have to do our job and are not out to “screw” the insured out of anything that they are entitled too.

The newer versions of Xactimate include all of these things and it never hurts to ask your adjuster what he/she is working with. Also, get to know your carriers as well. Some are notoriously bad at signing off on entire roofs and others are more accommodating.

Always be aware that you get more out of being nice than rude and that if ever anything is missed (it happens) the supplemental claim is there to pick up the slack.

I would love that Excel Spread so as to help me do my job better and hopefully help you guys out too.

Always willing to help if I can.

Thanks,
Gene


#18

Welcome Gene. We don’t rail on all adjusters, just the bad ones. Unfortunately, that seems to be a majority.

I realize, as I think most of us do, that adjusters have parameters they are given to work within in order to keep their jobs. I tend to like independent adjusters better because they are somewhat"independent" and are more inclined to do the right thing. That has just been my experience. I do have some very good company adjusters that I deal with on a regular basis and do what they can to get the claim paid where it needs to be. Sometimes they can only do so much. I appreciate these guys as they make my job much easier both as a contractor and Public Adjuster. Of course, if all adjusters were like these guys then I wouldn’t have to be a Public Adjuster.

We welcome any insight you may have to making all of our jobs less complicated. My biggest issue with insurance companies is them blatantly ignoring the terms of their contracts. Neither Allstate nor State Farm nor any other insurance company knows what it costs any particular contractor to run their business. I could get twenty different contractors to bid the same job and I will get 20 different prices. Each is going to bid it based on what it cost them to do the job plus their profit and overhead. It doesn’t matter if the job is a 2 square shed or a 200 square apartment complex, a contractor’s overhead and expected profit are going to be the same.

Their insurance policies are very specific. The loss settlement provisions state something to this effect: We will pay the actual and necessary cost to repair or replace your damaged property. It doesn’t say we will pay what we think it is worth. If I paid what I thought my insurance policy was worth I’d be writing them a check for about 50 cents! Of course, they wouldn’t accept that any more than a contractor will accept 50 cents on the dollar to do their work.


#19

Can I get a copy of that spreadsheet if you have a recent one? I’d love to compare if possible! mike.roofmastersplus@aol.com

Thanks
Mike w/ Roof Masters Plus


#20

Authentic_Dad… I’d love to pick your mind/knowledge about all of your work with insurance work. We are just starting to take on some of this and learning this is another animal. Please email if you wouldn’t mind… thank you!

kecia@allseasonroofing-il.com

Thank you in advance,
Kecia Holiday
All Seasons Roofing Specialists