The nightmare continues


#1

Well, my roofing saga continues.

I found a guy to do the repairs on my roof…my roof was just redone back in May and the “contractor” who did it left loose ends and leaks

Signed a contract with this new guy and all.

I then asked for a copy of his insurance and recieved, in short order, a certificate from his company showing liability insurance. No problem there.

It didnt talk about workers comp or anything, and I know you guys here have stated that a consumer needs to be sure that roofers have this.

So I called his office back and asked the receptionist if he could provide a copy of THAT to me…I got a call back from his receptionist saying that this fellow says " he has never worked that way and that he would never sue you" and that he said “if you are not comfortable with that then perhaps you should look elsewhere to have the repairs done.”

I asked her to ask him if he would sign “something” that would release me from liability for injuries etc…she just got back to me and said he would.

I said this in the document:


This document serves to state that (company name and address here) shall hold the property, property insurance and property owners (property owners name here) completely free of liability for any injury or loss to any worker, employee or subcontractor under its employ, while on the jobsite of (my address here) during the period of time during which roof repairs are being made on this property.

All liability for any injury or loss to any worker, employee or subcontractor under its employ shall be solely that of (company name here).

(Company name here) agrees to provide the original signed copy of this document on the day that the work commences.


The owner of the company confirmed he would sign this.

Am I out of line asking for workers comp? Will the document protect me?

I am so gun-shy now after dealing with the last guy…he has ruined me as far as trustin ganyone right now…

Am I being too paranoid?


#2

Hi,

His employees would have to sign the release. The workers would come after you.


#3

[quote=“Lefty”]Hi,

His employees would have to sign the release. The workers would come after you.[/quote]

I am told its his brother and himself that would be doing the work. So I am not too worried I gyuess at this point…

I figured that the part where I say that his company accepts all liability for his workers, employees and subs would be enough to cover…???


#4

It is the Law that any employee must be covered by workmans compensation.

The way he “Might” be tgetting around that law, is if he and his brother are the only 2 workers for the company and they are both owners or partners of the company.

Then, they could choose to exclude themselves from being covered.

That still does not protect you though, but if you are worried, take out a rider on your home owners policy if yours will do that.

They are saving at a minimum, 38.00 per 100.00 of paid wages by not carrying workers compensation. Some rates are much higher in other areas too.

Ed


#5

it is illegal and unethical to expect
that a guy on the roof could/ would sign away the rights of his heirs just to lower their price
to do the kind of work that you require.

Legitimate partners with a legitimate registered agreement might be able to cover their disability insurance thru their wives group health and medical insurance plan, but as far as for helpers, subs, etc…
I would ask my lawyer.


#6

whole things sounds shady to me. why would you even consider hiring somone without the proper insurance. A waiver would mean nothing in court .


#7

The last guy that worked on my roof was supposed to give me proof of insurance and never did. Not liability, not wc, nothing.

I have called numerous roofers at this point…most dont want to touch it as its “someone else’s mistakes” and want to do a tearoff and do-over.

The company that is responsible for referring the first “roofer” to me had promised to come out and make things right and that guy kept taking and subsequently losing my number for 2 months…made two appointments with me and never showed up…basically sending me the message that he doesn’t want to be involved now.

Two companies have now given me bids and they are about the same.

The one I am using has full liability…I confirmed it thru his insurance company. I was dealing with the owner…older guy. I am told he and his brother do the work. The document I asked him to sign states that his company takes all liability for any injury…He signed the document no problem.

I am trying not to be a “problem homeowner” and am TRYING to have a little trust in people again after being stung by the first SOB.

At this point, I am running out of options anyways.

The bad weather is coming soon and I have to get this wrapped up. The repairs I am waiting on only handles the incorrectly installed ridgevents and the leaks I have…the improperly installed gutters and aesthetic issues with the soffit fascia are above and beyond this…and will cost way more than the $4k I witheld from the first SOB. And not only do I have to look forward to having part of my 3 month old roof redone, I have to look forward to suing the first SOB for money so I can get the rest of the work re-done. Plus, the added gem of waiting to see if he is going to try and lien my home.

Shady? I can tell you about shady…I have dealt with so many roofers and contractors at this point that I am feeling like most roofers/contractors around my area are shady…one supposedly well-known company came out…the owner came out and talked a big talk, claimed he could fix my problem for $400…said they normally dont do repairs but that he felt bad for me and would make an exception this time around…would send me an estimate…he did and it was for $400… and then when I called to schedule him he said he couldn’t come out for less than $1,000 due to insurance requirements that said he couldnt do a job for less than $1k, so maybe I needed a new storm door or “something” to bring the total up to $1,000…I said OK and he said his guy would call me to discuss…never heard from him again.

The other two estimates (both companies that have been around for a long time) I got are requiring a partial tearoff and are almost $4k…I wish $400 could have fixed the issues, but I had the feeling it was lo-balling.

I am sick of the whole industry to be honest.

I usually do my own home improvement stuff, but I knew that roofing was WAAAAAAAAAAY over my head (pardon the pun)…I looked to the “professionals” to get the job done and it has been nothing but a g-damn nightmare for us.

You guys sometimes talk about nightmare homeowners, “tire kickers”, etc…Well, let me tell you…its no fun being on the consumer side of this industry, at least not in my area. I know there are good guys and bad guys in all fields. But there sure seem to be a lot of scumbags in the roofing industry. Everyone I talk to has some nightmare roofing story to relate to mine.

You guys need to track down the scumbags in your profession and put them out of their misery…they are giving you good guys a REALLY bad name.

Sorry to vent…After almost 5 months of dealing with my roof and all the problems that have come with it, I am growing more and more bitter and upset…I know its not you guys, and I do appreciate your advice.

I just want this to end.


#8

[quote=“thebaycompany”]it is illegal and unethical to expect
that a guy on the roof could/ would sign away the rights of his heirs just to lower their price
to do the kind of work that you require.

Legitimate partners with a legitimate registered agreement might be able to cover their disability insurance thru their wives group health and medical insurance plan, but as far as for helpers, subs, etc…
I would ask my lawyer.[/quote]

I am not asking anyone to “sign away his rights” to “lower the price”…Remember, I signed the contract for the price before this came up…I assumed that the “fully insured” statement in his yellow pages ad covered it all…I am not asking the guy to give up anything for his “heirs”…I am worried about MY heirs…LOL


#9

[quote=“ed the roofer”]It is the Law that any employee must be covered by workmans compensation.

The way he “Might” be tgetting around that law, is if he and his brother are the only 2 workers for the company and they are both owners or partners of the company.

Then, they could choose to exclude themselves from being covered.

That still does not protect you though, but if you are worried, take out a rider on your home owners policy if yours will do that.

They are saving at a minimum, 38.00 per 100.00 of paid wages by not carrying workers compensation. Some rates are much higher in other areas too.

Ed[/quote]

Thanks Ed…didnt know you could do that…will look into it just to be safe. Wonder what that will cost me if available?


#10

sure there are a lot of scumbag roofers but there are also a lot of scumbag laywers,doctors and plumbers as well. Ethics in society are at a low it is sad to say.


#11

Shandango,

I completely agree.

While not making a broad slash with the paint brush, I feel that over 90% of all contractors, not just roofing contractors are unqualified.

They may be nice people, but have no formal or long term school of hard knocks training to differentiate themselves, but they “Think” they know what they are doing.

What types of business certifications and installation certifications do they stay on top of? Not just taking a test one time or paying a fee for some credentials, but actual ongoing dedication to formalizing the upgrading of their business and installation acumen.

From my perspective, which obviously is biased, I exceed those criteria, but get lumped into the category all the same, until I prove myself otherwise.

After I get done with my next job, where we had an accidental mistake, I will share what the home owner will write down about the experience. I haven’t met with him for the final, final walk through yet, but feel confident that he will state how we handled the problem in as ethical and fair of a manner as possible.

Ed


#12

Gotta say Ed, if you handle yourself in your practice as you do here, I would say that that customer can rest easy.

You seem very professional.

You are admitting you made a mistake and are correcting that mistake…If the SOB whodid my roof had simply ADMITED he and his crew screwed some things up and had he fixed them in a timely manner, I wouldn’t be here annoyingeveryone with my whining…LOL

I am in the video trade and was a contractor for a good ten years…I had to prove myself every day and I took pride in being the best I could be.

It sounds like you are too.

I made plenty of mistakes but always made good on them and made sure the client was satisfied. I ate costs where I had to in order to be sure that happened.

I have said before and said over and over again…I would GLADLY pay more to know my job was being done RIGHT the FIRST time…by a real true professional.

The problem you have as a contractor, as you stated, is that you have to prove yourself because of what the sub-par folks have done to others.


#13

Well, since you pointed out my example and I have a few spare moments, here is the scenario.

Home Owner picked me because I exceeded the qualifications of any of the others he received “Bids” from while I delivered a comprehensive proposal and answered his very very many questions as accurately as possible.

He lives in a neighborhood that has dozens upon dozens of job sign in everyones yard from storm chasing companies due to a supposed Hail Storm event. (The most recent hail event in the area did not actually hit that neighborhood, but many adjusters think that old age and pitting are signs of hail and since a neighborhood about 10 miles North was devastated recently, they presumed it struck there too)

He had AllState, which denied his coverage and upon my inspection of the roof, I agreed with AllStates adjusters opinion, even though 90% of the neighborhood is getting new roofs for supposed hail damage. So, he is paying about $ 12,000.00 cash out of pocket, while everyone else is getting theirs done for their deductible amount and also getting new siding too.

On his home, he has this special type of gutter system, which I have not seen in about 20 years. It is a large Box Gutter, not Ogee, (K-Style), with a ribbed metal aluminum fascia as the front viewable profile and under the rear bottom, their is a receiver ledge or lip formed into the product to act as the J-Channel for the aluminum soffit underneath.

20 years ago, I ran into this product and asked what it was, and this product was called Omni Gutter or Omni Facade, more correctly as I found out from the current research.

On the job, we had a partial sheet of plywood nailed to the roof surface above garage door number 1 of a 3 car garage for the ladder to rest against so that it would not dent or scuff up.

Time out for a minute:
Prior to starting the job, I made casual notice that one section of his gutter was pretty already dinged up and took a photo of it, but it did not show up clearly enough to prove it. It was only a short section on the front porch roof though, but I know, but didn’t take the extra time to document the fact, that other Gutter Facade sections had signs of minor dings and scratching.

Back to the story:
On the 2nd to last day of the job, one of the crew members stepped too high on the ladder rung, which is totally unsafe to do and he should have known better, but…

When he stepped on a rung above the elevation of the plywood which was resting carefully on the upper portion of the front face of the gutter, the ladder kicked out at the bottom on the driveway strong enough to pop over the 2 bundles of shingles on the ground at the feet of the ladder.

The ladder did not slide or fall down, since it was secured on both sides to the closest gutter brackets, but the mans body weight on the ladder compressed the gutter fascia portion inwards.

We were able to body shop the facade back to “Almost” unnoticeable condition, but it was still noticeable if you looked for it in the right light.

Since this was on the front side of his home right smack dab in view of the drive way, I felt that the only thing to do, was to offer to repair the product, if I could find the manufacturer still.

I discovered after a while on the internet, that Omni had changed hands and was now called Spectra Metals, so I found a local branch about 45 minutes away from me to check out what they had in stock.

Unfortunately, they stopped producing this profile of Gutter Facade about 3 months ago, but had one “Nearly” identical. The only damaged section was on a 13 foot section, but was connected to multiple inside and outside corner sections consisting of a total length of about 45 feet.

My initial plan, was to tin snip off just the face portion of the new style and use white aluminum pop rivets to just cover up the old gutter. Well, since this is a new profile, the height is just about 1/2" lower than the old profile, which left it looking like a gutter inside of a gutter. It sucked in my opinion. I told the home owner I was only moderately satisfied with it and asked if he wanted the entire connected 45 foot front section changed out instead of the originally agreed upon cosmetic cover plating job and he said yes.

No argument from me, since I knew in advance that he would be a highly particular customer.

I purchased all of the specialty Omni Facade product to replace all of the connected sections, plus some that had dings on them, even though we never set up a ladder on those roof sections, but since they were straight sections, they were much easier to do. If I had taken “Before” photos, I may have been able to argue that those other gutter sections were not my scope of responsibility, but I nether took photos nor addressed them in any pre-job evaluation, which I have now learned I should. This is what happens when something goes wrong, that the customer starts looking at everything with a magnifying glass, even things that most likely were there before we arrived.

Bottom line, approximately 77 feet of this Omni Facade has been removed and replaced and I was have spent about 40 man hours for the removal and reinstall, plus about 2 plus 4 more hours going to the facility to 1st check out the product and meet with the customer with a sample piece and then 2 more trips to go there to pick up the product to use on his home.

The only One section that he is getting charged for, with his knowledge and consent, is the front porch one, which my foreman did in fact point out to him on the beginning of the first day on the job, so out of 77 feet he is going to get charged proportionately for 13 feet, or 13/77ths of the entire cost of materials and labor.

I believe that he will be as close to being brought back to 100% pre-damage condition, if not better, in my opinion, than prior to the accidental damage occurring.

It sucks to admit that my company screwed up and sucks even more that I had this significant out of pocket expense, but that just the way I was raised I guess. That part does not suck and i hope that the customer agrees with my conclusion.

Ed


#14

Holy Chit!!!

I didn’t realize how long of a post that was when I was typing it.

Sorry for the long read guys.

Ed


#15

That is classic “ED”. As always, a job done right!!


#16

If his roofers are sub-contracted to him then he has a lead man or “crew-leader” that works directly as a sub to him and all other crew members work for him. In that case as stated above all limits of liability should be expressed in his contract/proposal of services to you. I am a part time roofing sales man in Texas but my full time job is as a EH&S Manager so I have fairly extensive knowledge about workmans-comp and small businesses have alot of exceptions as long as proper documentation of the expressed liability are given.


#17

Ed, your story is a good one…you came through for the customer…wish you were in my area! LOL

Well, the saga continues. :roll:

I did some sniffing around about the fellow I am planning on using and found that he had two lawsuits against him back in early 05 and early 06. One in 02 and then 4 or 5 in the mid 90’s. Not a lot of detail on these earlier ones but a couple he won by default and a couple others he lost.

I actually contacted the guy from 05 and he gave me the story…said that the guy (who we will call Al) “installed the wrong roof”. Turns out, Al installed dimensional shingles on the roof, and the roof was too low a pitch, according to the customer. He had a leak before Al came and the roof continued to leak after the he left and caused interior damage. Apparantly, AL was not receptive to the issue and , according to the customer, blamed the shingle manufacturer. The customer had other contractors come out and they told him he needed to have the roof completely redone, to have the pitch changed.

Well, the customer sued Al for “putting on the wrong roof” and the customer said that the judge found in his favor, that Al had installed the wrong type of roof…and Al appealed it and lost again and had to refund the customer all of his money back.

The name of the 05 customer was easy to track down…the o6 customer has a very common name and there are 300 hits on the white pages for it so I wont be able to look into that one without actually going to the courthouse.

At first I was thinking I better drop Al like a hot potato.

But after thinking a while, how could the pitch of the roof be Al’s fault? I guess he should have known what type of roof could or couldn’t be on that pitch…but I have the feeling that the customer wanted a certain look and insisted on it…seeing as the contractors he had come out after Al said he had to change the pitch of his roof. Yet the judge found for the customer?

Al has been in business, according to the BBB, for 25 years…since 1983.and these two cases are the only two I could find directly linked to him…

I am really trying to be trusting here and have not asked Al about the cases yet…should I? The guy seems nice and what not…and I know any business can be the target of a lawsuit from an unhappy customer…

The guy who did my roof originally and left me hanging had no cases listed against him though, that I could find…and he screwed us and that mess is still yet to pan out. So I dont know if that means Al is worse or that it means nothing at all.

Al feels that my leaks are coming from the improperly applied valleys and shingles on the rear face of my porch roof…but I got up on the roof with a hose yesterday and found that I could cause the leak by keeping the water away from that area and instead aiming at the flashing where the “$400” guy said the leak was coming from.

The facing part still needs redone as I can see gaps in the seams and where they bent the shingles over the "hip"s which run horizontally due to my roof’s structure and how the first guy installed the shingles…I can see those as being serious issues…plus a second contractor had the same verdict…so I don’t think I have an issue doing a $3600 job when the $400 job might fix the leak itself…

But these lawsuits…should I be worried? Should I ask the guy about them or will that offend him? He seems like an old-schooler. I looked into a coupel other roofers I had been considering and got estimates from and it turns out they have a similar record…I guess that if you are in business long enough you will have this happen? The first guy I hired has no record anywhere under his name ,but that could be because he never persues it…

Al signed the laibility waiver no problem and doesnt take a penny til the job is done and I am satisified…so I am probably being over-cautious, right? It could be that he just rubs some clienst the wrong way or that he goes to court on pronciple…

Guys, what do I do here?

I am getting more and more lost and just want this to be done and over with already. I dont want to condemn a guy.


#18

I think you found your leak, a water hose usually tells the truth. I just did a chimney repair where the homeowner wanted the chimney cap fixed, he said water was pouring in. I ran water on the roof without getting any on the cap and it flooded inside the house. His roof is only 4 years old and it has leaked since it was roofed, the roofer told him he needed a new chimney cap and didn’t fix his leak. I would go with the roofer that took the time to find the leak instead of guessing, you are on the right path.


#19

Well, the one that thought he knew where the leak was coming from, the one who said it was where I tested, is the one who said they would do the job for $400 to reflash. But that they couldnt come out for less than $1,000 and was supposed to send a guy out to see what other improvements I could make to bring it up to $1,000.

He also wanted to renail the ridgvents…

Two other contractors (including this Al) want to reflash but also redo the valleys and part of the roof, both syaing they feel that those areas are the bigger concern…and replace the ridgevents, this time using longer nails (the first guy used 1.5" nails…which leaves about 1/4" nail going into the shingles and decking… :roll:


#20

Not sure if renailing the ridgevent by useing longer nails would work if they just put longer nails in the same hole, even if they moved the ridgevent over a little to keep from going back in the same hole it would leave nail holes in the top shingles, the top coarse of shingles would need replacing. If I was going to go back in the same holes I might consider useing screws but I’ve never had to do that, I always use 3" nails for nailover ridgevent. I do repairs on roofs that have alluminum ridgevent that were nailed with roofing tacks and I replace them with screws for metal roofs with the neoprene washers and they work well.

Like I said, putting a longer nail in the same hole one came out of is not a good idea.