Spanish tile roof, Ice and Water Underlayment question


#1

I am going to repair my dads spanish tile roof. I have already replaced the plywood in the damaged area. For an underlayment, should I use Certainteeds Wintergaurd or is Grace’s Ice and Water Shield superior? I know that the Grace product is more expensive, my question is that extra cost because of better quality? The 1SQ roll of Grace’s product are on clearance at Lowes so if I order in quantity I can get it for ~$50 a square vs $50 for a 2SQ roll of Wintergaurd. The roof is going to cost a bloody fortune either way, so even though Grace’s Ice and Water shield is more expensive, it’s a small part compared to the total roof cost (I just bought ~$3,000 worth of Copper rolls! $6.30 a lb), so I want to get the best product not considering costs. The Ludowici installation instructions specifies Certainteed’s Wintergaurd or equivalent, I am wondering if Grace’s product is “equivalent or better.”

The roof pitch is a 12" run for a 8" rise.

Thanks in advanced guys :slight_smile:

-David


#2

if the manual says winterguard, use winterguard.

…side note…lowes is a rip off!!


#3

I agree, Lowes is usually a ripoff, but since the item is on clearance it is cheaper than Allied Building Supply is able to sell me the Grace Ice and Water shield.

I can understand you saying that I should choose the Certainteed product because the manufacturer says so. I think I communicated improperly, the manufacturers installation guide merely mentions Certainteeds product, it does not recommend it. The Wintergaurd/Ice Shield is the most important part of a spanish tile roof as water does get under the tiles. I want this roof to last 100 years (ok, i’m dreaming, 50 years, but you get the idea), so the underlayment is extremely important.

Also, the existing roof had 2 sets of #30 paper on it, I plan on replacing the whole roof with an ice shield, can this potentially create any venting issues?

Thanks again,
David


#4

yes…you can trap moisture and create condensation!!


#5

Grace is far superior to Winterguard, it is reflected in the price.
You may want to look at Certainteed HT, it is better than winterguard it also costs more.


#6

[quote="-Axiom-"]Grace is far superior to Winterguard, it is reflected in the price.
You may want to look at Certainteed HT, it is better than winterguard it also costs more.[/quote]

Thank you! :slight_smile: This is exactly the information I was looking for. What would you recommend, the Grace Ice and Water or the Cetainteed HT (again if not considering price)?

I greatly apprechiate your help axiom.


#7

I recommend the Grace. But not on the whole roof.
Water should not get under the tiles unless the pitch is too low or there are other extreme factors such as being in a high wind area.


#8

Dennis,

The tile manufacturers association readily admits that the true water-proofing from a tile roof system comes from the under-layments, not the tiles themselves, regardless of the slope.

I have read the actual verbage, but did not save it, but the links were recently posted in the Nachi.org forum that I told you about previously, when I mentioned that long and detailed thread about ventilation.

Ed


#9

On tile you should have full I&W. the only reason Ludiwici recomends Wintergard is because they use to be owned by Certainteed, I heard they sold them just like they did Air vent. Grace is the best. A tile roof is only as good as its underlayment
RooferJim
ps
a lot of this ventilation buzz word hype is very similar to global warming.


#10

I agree Grace is the better ice barrier but for what you’re using it for it’s probably not needed. I like to use Grace for doing things like built in gutters and other copper work because it lends itself to being tightly molded. For laying material in the ‘feild’ area of a roof? It’s your call but imo you don’t need “the best” ice barrier money can buy for that. The HT on ice barrier stands for “high temperature”, you don’t need that either. It is made to withstand higher heating and it’s used for underlayment in places that will require soldering or other heat applied work.

I am comfortable putting tile down on the pitch you described with ice barrier on the rake, eave, wall, roof protrusion (etc)and valley areas with double 30 pound felt throughout. Make sure you run felt over the ice shielded areas otherwise the tile will end up embedding itself in the ice barrier and make future repairs very difficult or impossible.

There are also many good synthetic underlayments you may substitute for regular felt paper these days like Deck Armor or Tri-Flex.


#11

Yes thats the old way is double or heavy felt. with one layer of ice shield its the same thing if not a better job put down quicker.


#12

david,
go to your local roofing supply and tell them
you want to look at there tile underlayment.
they let you see the difference in brands.
one may seem better to you.
also ask them what they sell the most of.
you dont want to go with something so od that you get something that has been sittin in the warehouse for years.
also when you decide on a brand,
buy it from the supply company.
they will be alot cheaper.
usually.

gweedo


#13

Thanks a ton guys, I am going to start on the underlayment this Saturday (spring break project :slight_smile: ). I have already purchased the Grace Ice and Water shield.

Tar Monkey, I have a question, you mentioned:

"make sure you run felt over the ice shielded areas otherwise the tile will end up embedding itself in the ice barrier and make future repairs very difficult or impossible.

There are also many good synthetic underlayments you may substitute for regular felt paper these days like Deck Armor or Tri-Flex."

What weight/number felt paper should I run over the Ice and Water shield?
Also is it OK to staple the felt paper on top of the I/W shield?
Does the stapling have to be done the same day I lay down the I/W shield?

One last one :slight_smile:

Should I maybe use one of those synthetic underlayments you mentioned instead of regular felt paper on top of the I/W shield?

I had to replace the wood for the built in gutters, since I am laying down new copper in the built in gutters (this section of the roof got damaged beyond repair, I tore everything down and started with new wood), I just want to clarify, I just lay down the I/W on top of the copper and for this part I don’t put any felt paper since their will be no tiles on top, right? <— I know this is obvious, but I just want to double check everything, considering the significant investment this project is turning out to be.

Next time your in Jersey Tar Monkey, the BEER is on me! :slight_smile:


#14

What weight/number felt paper should I run over the Ice and Water shield?

If you’re going to Ice and Water the entire roof then I guess you could go ahead and use 15 pound felt. The normal standard is to use doubled 30 pound with no Ice and water in the field area. I don’t think it matters for your application because it’s just going to be a buffer layer between the I&W and the tiles right?

**Also is it OK to staple the felt paper on top of the I/W shield? **

We don’t staple here, it doesn’t hold the underlayment well which in turn makes it dangerous to walk on. Use stapes if you like but “plasti-top” or “simplex” nails hold best.

Does the stapling have to be done the same day I lay down the I/W shield?

I don’t understand the question. If you’re asking do you need to put down the I&W and the paper on the same day the answer is no.

Should I maybe use one of those synthetic underlayments you mentioned instead of regular felt paper on top of the I/W shield?

No. The synthetics are nice but expensive and going over a full application of I&W is complete overkill imo.

**I had to replace the wood for the built in gutters, since I am laying down new copper in the built in gutters (this section of the roof got damaged beyond repair, I tore everything down and started with new wood), I just want to clarify, I just lay down the I/W on top of the copper and for this part I don’t put any felt paper since their will be no tiles on top, right? <— I know this is obvious, but I just want to double check everything, considering the significant investment this project is turning out to be. **

Again I don’t realy follow. You’re installing built in copper gutters? Next to impossible to do right if you’ve never done it before. Most professionals don’t even know to lock and pre-tin their seams, heh.
In any case you would totally and neatly line your entire built in gutter with I&W barrier. Use High Temperature because you’re going to solder over it. The normal I&W will melt or catch fire. After the I&W you want to line the gutter with a “slip sheet”, red rosin paper works well. Again, like the tile, this provides a buffer between copper and I&W so the gutter doesn’t stick. Then your copper goes last. Make sure you pre-tin and lock all seams or suffer the consequences.