Roofer's way.....or my way? Advice please


#1

I have selected a roofer to replace my roof.

Things we agree on:
1 Remove existing shingles and felt to bare wood.
1.5 Cut any siding to roof for 1" clearance.
2 Pull any proud nails, and renail all decking.
3 Remove 4 turbines and cover holes with 2’x4’
decking piece.
4 Close gable vent.
5 Grace I&W in all valleys.
6 Copper pipe flanges.
7 Certainteed SwiftStart starter shingles all
around perimeter.
8 Certainteed Roofers Select Felt using cap nails.
9 Certainteed Landmark TL shingles and Shadow Ridge
ridge caps.
10 Hand nail shingles with 1 1/4" nails.
11 Install ShingleVent II ridge vent on all ridges
and dormers using 2 1/2" nails.
12 Closed valley.
13 Build cricket for chimney.
14 Cut reglet and flash/counterflash chimney. NP1.
15 Install diverters at all roof/wall connections.
16 Clean gutters, add screws to 16"OC.
17 Clean up and haul off all waste with dump truck.
18 Payment at end of project.

Points of consideration:
1 I think drip edge on rakes and gutter apron on
eaves. He uses neither, instead overhangs
rakes 1 1/2" and eaves 2". (Currently there is
no drip edge or gutter apron, and no leaks.)
It is rarely used in this area.
I am concerned this overhang at eaves could
interfere with possible future gutter covers.
2 I am considering I&W all around the perimeter,
as well as around dormers, at wall/roof
intersections, and around pipes and chimney.
He says not necessary, currently none used.
Like drip edge, rarely used in this area.
3 I think 4x4x8 copper step flashing, he says reuse
(good) aluminum step flashing.
4 I suggested 8penny ring shank nails for the
decking 7/16 OSB, he uses 2" staples.

The roofer has been in business for 17 years, and has 18 years experience prior to that with a well respected local company. Many high end builders use him. He has a 5 man very experienced crew including himself doing the work, and does not sub. Insured, good references, prompt, and courteous.

He has spent more than 6 hours with me, and I am very comfortable that he knows his business and is who I want to use.

Should I press my wishes, or rely on his experience to do the job correctly? I don’t want to be a horses behind trying to overkill and end up running him off with my meddling. I know he is the pro, not me.

By the way, we almost never have snow or ice.

Any recommendations (chill out, take a pill, go on vacation, etc.) are appreciated.

Pictures at link

s508.photobucket.com/albums/s328/oldm60grunt/

Thanks in advance,

Alan


#2

some on here might disagree, but i say get the dripedge and gutter apron.

Besides that, go with it.


#3

[quote]Points of consideration:
1 I think drip edge on rakes and gutter apron on
eaves. He uses neither, instead overhangs
rakes 1 1/2" and eaves 2". (Currently there is
no drip edge or gutter apron, and no leaks.)
It is rarely used in this area.
I am concerned this overhang at eaves could
interfere with possible future gutter covers.
2 I am considering I&W all around the perimeter,
as well as around dormers, at wall/roof
intersections, and around pipes and chimney.
He says not necessary, currently none used.
Like drip edge, rarely used in this area.
3 I think 4x4x8 copper step flashing, he says reuse
(good) aluminum step flashing.
4 I suggested 8penny ring shank nails for the
decking 7/16 OSB, he uses 2" staples.

1.Here in Northern Indiana the Roofers all use Drip Edge, most but not all use Gutter Apron. I highly recommend both. Especially the Gutter Apron. It just helps so much to get the water in the gutter, and that shingle drooping in to the gutter looks freakin’ stupid! Your right about the shingle getting in the way of the gutter protection. Ask him to quote you gutter protection as well. We sell quite a bit of a product called Leaf Relief from Alcoa, and they make a “new construction” product that works as the gutter hangar system as well.

  1. I am a big advocate of ice and water at eaves and valleys. In your situation it is cheap insurance. It is actually code here in Indiana to be 24" past the inside heated wall.

  2. The copper step flashing may be a bit much, you’d have a hard time convincing me that you need copper step flashing on a roof. Your aluminum step will last as long as the asphalt shingles you have selected. On a real slate roof, use copper. Use copper around a chimney, and if you are using open valleys, use copper valley, but don’t waste your money on copper step flashing.

  3. The staples are fine for installing the decking. The holding power to hold the decking on will be sufficient. You will have other concerns at the time when a wind large enough to take your decking off comes along. Your concern when re-decking should be leaving space around all sides of the OSB. Do not let your roofer tell you that he uses plywood clips. They do not provide the spacing needed, they are for strength. If he says that local codes say he must use clips, see if you can get away from them by using a thicker decking, like 1/2" plywood. Decking will move and will buckle when butted together. This buckling will “telegraph” through the shingles, and you will be able to see each individual 4x8 sheet of decking under your shingles, or at least will buckle the felt and you will see the felt “humping” under the shingles.

While your roof is open ask your roofer if he can blow insulation into your attic space. We have the roofers in our area offering Owens Corning AttiCat, and they are having a lot of success

insulation.owenscorning.com/home … ticat.aspx[/quote]


#4

Go with himm and take his advise,With ref. like his I would say he knows what he talking about,take a break.


#5

Nah you can relax.

With that said, in your “Points of consideration” I agree with you on 2 things.

  1. I’m not a big fan of staples and would rather see nails in the decking… but staples are adequate.

  2. I am also not a big fan of reusing old flashing, especially aluminum flashing.
    Replacing flashing often means taking the siding down on a wall where roof and wall intersect. This is very time consuming and would require extra charge to compensate for the time involved.
    Often homeowners are not willing to pay this extra expense so many roofing contractors would rather just reuse the original flashing to save time and money rather then passing raising the price and risk loosing a bid on a job.

This is not to say that reusing good flashing is wrong. As long as the old flashing is in good shape and the flashing has been installed correctly, this is an acceptable practice.


#6

NO to the staples. I would insist on nails. Period.


#7

ring shank 8’s for decking nails.

i think drip edge has a more finished look.


#8

back in the early 80’s I applied grace ice and water shield to gutter edges and all you spoke of on 14 acres of roofing for test purposes. This was in Northern Illinois. When applying to gutter edges you have to come in 2lf past the inside wall. This is due to Ice Damning starts to thaw due to heat loss in this area. So if your anticipating this situation to happen then I would use it. Rake edge flashing and gutter flashing are considered a counter flashing a type of secondary protection for your fascia and gutters.The gutter flashing should be applied over the ice & water system. As for decking I do not believe in staples screws and or nails are what I would use. I may be wrong but I thought staples were out lawed back in 1986. Well any way building codes for your area should be checked out before you begin.


#9

Hi,

I use nails to install sheathing.

I see nothing wrong with staples. I do not like to remove sheathing that has staples. Staples do not loosen up. They stay put. Sheathing with nails is a lot easier to replace.


#10

That is strange that he’s planning to use air power to fasten the staples into the decking but will hand nail the shingles. I like staples over nails to install decking. The staples have a wide crown which will bite into the wood. Had a few engineers I’ve done roofs for over the years compare nails and staples and most agree staples would hold better. Ring shank nails hold really good too! I know one framer out of about twenty who fasten down decking with nails.

What do stucho guys use to fasten the wire mesh? What does Certainteed to fasten together the Winterguard boxes? Staples work, plain and simple.

I used to use 1 inch wide crown staples to install shingles and on the hundres of roofs up until switching to nails about 7 years ago never had blow off issues. As a matter of fact we’ve had two roofs were half was nails and half was staples and the shingles that blew off were held in place with nails, no figure. Perhaps those engineers were onto something.

Is the roofing contractor a Certainteed Shingle Master Company offering an Integrity Warranty? It looks like he is as he’s going to use all Certainteed products which is required for the warranty. Here in Minnesota to get the warranty I have to install Winterguard not only to code but also around all penetrations.

One thing that concerns me is the ridge. If he’s planning to install Landmark TL’s which are what we’re installing on my current job and the next job he should really double up the Shadow Ridge. I even do this with Landmark Premiums. The problem you will have is 30 year ridge on a 50 year shingle if only one layer is installed. Sort of surprised the other roofers didn’t catch that.

If you want all the flashings replaced it’s not a bad idea. Trying to re-use aluminum flashing is very tough as it’s so easy to rip. To offer the Certainteed five star warranty all metal flashings must be replaced.

The scope of work looks good.


#11

Lol, I did catch that but it wasn’t listed as one of his concerns.

I just did a ton repair work in a development, every home in the development had what looked to be 25 year 3tab shingles used for caps over Timberline 40 year shingles.
The result was all the caps on all the homes have reached the end of there life while the rest of the shingles are in fair shape… we replaced all the cap on 12 of the homes.


#12

La_nailer - Thanks for the response.

MColpetzer - Thanks, I am not actually replacing the decking, only if bad and for the turbine holes.
Stuck with the 7/16 OSB.

kage - Thanks, I feel fortunate to get him.

Adept Roofing - Thanks for responding. The roofer is open to suggestions, not a hard case, so I can approach him again.

GTP1003 - Thank you, That is my preference.

RoofWizard - Thank you as well. No ice to worry about here, so that helps.

Lefty - Thanks Lefty.

dougger222 - It seems strange to me also, so I will check further. He is not certified with Certainteed. I requested the specific materials proposed, including Winterguard I&W which supplier was out of so went with Grace instead. I tried to order the Mountain Ridge which I believe is doubled, but it was only available on the west coast. I will double the Shadow Ridge as you suggest if it is not as thick.

Again thanks to all.

On a side note, I recently took the Certainteed tests, so am now a certified Wizard, shirt, diploma, and all, LOL! Not being a roofer, that’s funny! Please try to refrain from asking for any advice, however, as I am just a novice Wizard.
Seriously, it did give me a better appreciation of what it takes to be successful in this business.

Alan


#13

Couple of other questions come to mind.

Will the 2 1/2 nails be long enough if I double the cap, or should I use 3"?

Should the hips as well as ridge be doubled(I assume so)?

Does the valley I&W need to be 36" or 18"?

Thanks,

Alan


#14

Will the 2 1/2 nails be long enough if I double the cap, or should I use 3"?
If using ridge vent you will need to be at 3 inches. On the hips you we be fine with 2 inch, you won’t be going through more than 1.5 inches of shingles. I use four nails per ridge when doubled. The job we’re on now is going to take 22 bundles of Shadow Ridge and one comming up is going to take 28 bundles.

Should the hips as well as ridge be doubled(I assume so)?
Yes, it looks sharp. What I like best about the Shadow Ridge is that it’s a very close match in color to the shingles. How I understand it is that Contour Ridge is no longer made and Mountain Ridge has yet to come to the Midwest. I put Landmark 30’s on my roof with two layer of Shadow Ridge.

Does the valley I&W need to be 36" or 18"?
36 inch, Grace I&W is said to be the highest grade product on the market although I have heard of defective products.
Thanks,


#15

You should ask the roofer why he’s not a Master Installer and then pull out your certificate, polo, and hat!!!

You should call Certainteed and ask if you supervise if they would cover the warranty. For $3 a square you would have a Sure Start warranty that would go from 10 years to 50 years. More than likely they would say you would have to be doing the work with a crew that was versed in the ways of Certainteed.

I think it’s a great program that Certainteed offers. They got me set up with yard signs, brochures, and a lot of free warranties. Wished I would have gotten on board four years ago when the program started and I started using the Roofer Sellect.

BTW, I’m a proud Wizard too!


#16

Sounds like a good job scope…I agree with most of what was said… staples come out harder because they pull through the wood. I hate tearing them off. I do like the drip and apron better and if it was my house would want it that way.cost is about 1.72 per ft. here.For 400 - 500 $ more have a better look and more protection on your facia. depends on what you like. wind zones its a must. Everywhere is different but the roofer sounds knowledgable.


#17

I would rather tear off a roof with nails than staples any day. For pulling out nails found one of those toothy shovels work great. On steep roofs you can really got a nice reach out of them. With staples you got two sides to pull out. Some day there will be no roofs to tear off with staples though.

Try to talk the roofer into putting on drip edge and gutter apron. Running a 1.5 and 2 inch overhang sounds like a bad idea to me. Over time the 2 inch overhang on the eave will fold into the gutter and putting in screens or a leaf guard system will be tough.

With most drip edge and gutter aprons a 1/2 to 3/4 inch overhang is all that’s needed.

In one of the Landmark brochures it shows a roof with Weathered Woods with a massive overhang, it looks horrible.


#18

Alan,

I am impressed with your knowledge level as a consumer in both your questions and your house construction. I am a consumer getting ready to put on a new roof and live south of you in Atlanta. I have a few questions for you that may be helpful to me.

  1. Where have you picked up your roofing knowledge? From scrambling to educate yourself or have you been in the building products industry?

  2. How did you find the roofer you plan to use?

  3. How are you getting comfortable with the expertise level and trustworthiness of potential roofers? Both interviews and referrals?

I look forward to your response.

Boyd


#19

Hi Boyd,

Thanks for your kind words.

I needed a new roof, and wanted to gain enough knowledge to converse intelligently about the process. I frequented/lurked many of the pro roofer forums, like this one, and visited manufacturer websites. I quickly learned that a roof is more than shingles, but rather a system. Most important is the roofer, followed by materials, ventilation, warrantys, etc.

I ordered the Certainteed installation and technology manuals, and took their certification tests. I asked questions everywhere, and almost obsessed over gaining useful info.

As far as my roofer, he did roofs for friends, and is well respected with good references. I hope I feel as good about this afterwards as now.

As far as getting comfortable, I at least had enough info to know if I was being BS’ed or not. He also spent many hours with me making sure to understand what I wanted. Same day response to calls, prompt.

I would never attempt this on my own, as there is a world of difference between theory and practical experience. Like the saying “A man has to know his limitations.”

I am amazed at the knowledge level of the folks on this forum. They are craftsmen.

We are very fortunate they take the time to provide this resource for us.

Good luck, and if I can help in any way, let me know.

Alan


#20

Alan,

Thank you for your response. It appears that you have jumped into this thing of roof replacement with both feet and have clearly learned a lot. When do you plan to have your roofer begin the actual work of installing the new roof? And how long have you taken up to this point in the education process? You are obviously enjoying the journey. Hope this finds you doing well.

Boyd