OK people I wanna know!


#1

I wanna know why is that , electricians, HVAC, PLumbers, carpet people?? hello!!! etc are allowed to have a set estimate price, usually around 100-150$ but US roofers that keep every damn thing in a home dry (and all the other trades) have come to having free estimates? I wanna know who started the crap and why?, not the because if we don’t then no one will call us BS, if it were not for us none of the above would have a leg to stand on. Someone please clue me in cause I can spend 80$ a day sometimes in gas doing sales and never make a dime. who was it that started that mess??? gets me fired up just thinking about it sometimes, I guess us roofers are not worth it?


#2

Because any Tom, Dick and Jose’ can hop in a station wagon with a hammer and all of a sudden call himself a roofer.

I tried the Scope and Cost Analysis Consultation approach last year and people were not buying it.

Maybe with more of a differentiation between a “Regular” Roofing contractor and an “Elite” (Not GAF’s Version) status that really would mean something, there would be a turn around with the public perception.

Besides the Steep Slope Manual and the OSHA Safety courses, NRCA does “Squat” for the typical small to mid-sized residential roofing contractor.

I have some plans in the oven right now, getting discussed with some very relevant people, that might wind up developing the Beast that our trade and many other so-called low life contractors of small , medium and large contractors could benefit from.

Ed


#3

Ed is right. Unfortunately there are just way too many people cutting throats in our business. Only way I could see to stop it is for all municipalitys to institute the need for permits and inspections on every single roof job. At this time there is nothing to seperate the legit from the fly-by-night except price. You usually get what you pay for but by the time they find out we miss out on the big money and end up tarring their leaks for the next ten years.


#4

There talking about this on contractortalk.com right now on a thread. there is no such thing as free.


#5

What thread topic are you referring to?

As far as the National Roof Group Forums, yes, the past ones he has done have been for free. The hosting package costs $ 40.00 per YEAR.

That is not Free, but darn close to it.

I do want to know which topic thread you are referring to though.

If it is the one that I started about an organization with its basic premise as being a cross-referral network, that will not wind up being free, but it will wind up being about 1/10th to 1/30th the cost of doing the marketing campaigns by yourself.

Ed


#6

As far as i’m concerned, no more free here. Damn price shoppers, tire kickers and “i want to know my option” / “i want to know what the price is” degenerates killed my patience. I went to look at a 40 sq roof in Providence the other day, for these three “artist” type chicks. After 30 min they tell me another roofer will be there any minute and i need to get out… are you freaking kidding me?:evil: :evil:

Man, i hope they get a crappy expensive roof form some illegal guy that will leak like a sieve and the illegals will be no-where to be found :shock: uha-aha-aha

NO MORE FREE. I’d rather go to the beach and get my sun tan there :mrgreen:


#7

Jim, Sorry, I got confused what the original topic was about.

Duh…Free Estimates.

I thought you were making reference to the Free Websites or something else I posted about on CT.

Ed


#8

Why? Because we get…


#9

I got a kick out of home owner who I was giving a free estimate to yesterday.

He works as a therapist at a prison and said there are a lot of roofers in there. Of his 16 regular people who he gives therapy to 3 are roofers.

He’s done some roofing over the years and his father was a HUD inspector. From time to time he will quiz the roofers and most only know hammer and meth. Sort of sad really. No wonder why us roofers get a bad rap.

I spend about $75 per day with one truck in fuel. This year I am going to write off a sick amount for fuel.


#10

I just handed down my ‘08 dodge 2500 crew diesel to one of my crews and got a ford escape to do estimates. I turned it into a billboard. I went from $120-$160 a day in fuel on estimates to $50 every 3 days. The 24’ aluminum ladder actually doesnt look bad on top of it.

Maybe i can try to post some pics this week. There is actually way more room inside for my samples and lit.


#11

[quote=“marshall exteriors”]I just handed down my ‘08 dodge 2500 crew diesel to one of my crews and got a ford escape to do estimates. I turned it into a billboard. I went from $120-$160 a day in fuel on estimates to $50 every 3 days. The 24’ aluminum ladder actually doesnt look bad on top of it.

Maybe i can try to post some pics this week. There is actually way more room inside for my samples and lit.[/quote]

How did you mount a ladder rack to an Escape?
How much weight will it carry?
Sounds cool.


#12

[quote="-Axiom-"]

[quote=“marshall exteriors”]I just handed down my ‘08 dodge 2500 crew diesel to one of my crews and got a ford escape to do estimates. I turned it into a billboard. I went from $120-$160 a day in fuel on estimates to $50 every 3 days. The 24’ aluminum ladder actually doesnt look bad on top of it.

Maybe i can try to post some pics this week. There is actually way more room inside for my samples and lit.[/quote]

How did you mount a ladder rack to an Escape?
How much weight will it carry?
Sounds cool.[/quote]

I just strap it to the factory luggage rack with a couple tie downs. I’m sure it wont hold any more than the weight of the aluminum ladder.


#13

I hear you on gas prices,it makes me sick also. But I know someone that just came back from London and gas over there is over $8.00 a gallon.


#14

[quote=“LAMetalRoofs”]As far as i’m concerned, no more free here. Damn price shoppers, tire kickers and “i want to know my option” / “i want to know what the price is” degenerates killed my patience. I went to look at a 40 sq roof in Providence the other day, for these three “artist” type chicks. After 30 min they tell me another roofer will be there any minute and i need to get out… are you freaking kidding me?:evil: :evil:

Man, i hope they get a crappy expensive roof form some illegal guy that will leak like a sieve and the illegals will be no-where to be found :shock: uha-aha-aha

NO MORE FREE. I’d rather go to the beach and get my sun tan there :mrgreen:[/quote]

Curious-- when you buy your materials, do you always buy at one place or do you look around for the same thing elsewhere for less money? Seems like any business would do that, to improve his profit margin. Of course, relationships with vendors play into it too…

Or, when you go top buy a new truck or car, do you just go into the first dealer you pass and buy it, at sticker price, with no haggling or shopping around?

Put yourself in the consumer’s shoes – with so many contractors out there, we have no way to know who is legit and who isnt…what you see as “shopping around” is, for us as consumers, trying to cover our @sses and satisfy ourselves tha twe are not getting hosed… Now I know that there are some consumers out there basing it all on price only…and I agree, they will get what they pay for.

In my case, though, I got 6 estimates…got lists of their references and went and visited the references for those who made it to the last stage of my selection. And STILL, I seem to be having issues with a crew that works VERY slowly (3 weeks now into what was supposed to be a 1.5 week project) and a contractor who seems to have no control ober his crew and little concern for my time or inconvenience. Now I have to bite my tongue and let him have hi way so I can get the job done properly (I hope) and not piss him off for any future callbacks.

THAT is what the consumer is up against.

You can say “Well I am one of the good ones…I dont treat my customers that way”…Problem is, a consumer cant know in advance if the price is fair or not, or if the contractor is a shady character etc until several esitamtes are in hand…and even then, as in my case, that is no guarantee.

I look at the estimate process as integral to fidning the “right” contractor. I wont pay for estimates for ANY trade…unless I am 100% sure I am going to use them and that I will get it back towards labor or materials.

Some of you may do work for larger compoanies and corporations…THEY wont pay you for submitting a bid on one of their projects…why should Joe Consumer do so?


#15

I am curious about the shopper’s mentality…
are you suggesting that when you start looking around
for a gynecologist or proctologist, that your comfortable with the lowest price or the best referrals?

just saying!!

David


#16

The comparison to a new car or truck is not the same.

Each dealer receives the exact same vehicle, plus or minus various options.

They only have price and vehicle reputation to sell on, plus maybe their service department.

How did the “Sales Man” treat you? That is it.

You can buy the exact same TV from Best Buy or Circuit City, so, why not shop for the best price you can get.

A roof, or any construction trade end product, are all custom made products, installed specifically for that particular home and its nuances.

I probably would not have even submitted my proposal to you, if I knew you were getting 6 “Bids”. That smells of tire kicker all the way.

I have my 31 years in roofing as my selling aspect, but there are many others who claim the same thing or more and are lying through there teeth.

My reference list looks like a mini-White Pages from the phone book.

I evaluate each and every home on an individual basis for what I know it needs or from what the customer tells me they desire to be upgraded.

Now, some other company says they will do the same thing, but the home owner is left wondering after the fact why his decision is suspect.

Time, quality and education about the intricacies of all previous roofs and the experience level to deal with surprises that come up, are a mandate for a quality job.

I, and I am pretty much alone on this, except for the guy who owns his own company and also works on every job, believe that the demise in quality standards is directly related to the jobs nearly all being subcontracted out to others. There is no vested interest from that sub, to do a quality kob and learn from one job to the next.

Anybody can buy the same shingles and nails and felt paper and nails and ventilation products, but it is the completed job and timeliness that determines the customers full satisfaction level.

None know what that will be, until they actually hire someone to provide the service.

My list of unsolicited testimonials should reinforce that concept in the minds of home owners making this choice, but they still usually opt for the cheaper bid anyways, especially this year.

How can I “Prove” to a home owner, that the quality goes into each and every job we do, just like I preach?

What information does it take, to convince a home owner, that the other guy subbing out the job and charging 7,000.00 will do a much more inferior job than I have budgeted for 8,000.00?

Too many people just think, “Well, It’s Only A Roof.” or, “All Roofs Are The Same.”

What does it take to convince them otherwise, based on your current experience?

Ed


#17

to shadengo,

You see, when you shop for a car, YOU go to the dealership, and look at cars - you don’t have car salesmen come to your house with for the presentation. Now cars are a bad example, since many folks still manage to abuse salesman’s time - in professional jargon of car sales, these people are called strokers and Super-strokers :slight_smile: those who do a test-drive and ask 100’s of questions while having no intention to buy.

But lets get back to construction. I do not like strokers. And just like you - the consumer, I must pre-qualify the customer, to brush out if not all, then most of the disrespectful, greedy, at times dumb strokers. They damage my karma and make me angry… do I need that? NO. I want serious people who need a good roof, quality installation, warranty, customer service and many other marketing terms, ans also are ready to pay premium for all those great things. I mean come on, you don’t go shopping for a Lexus, and expect to pay a Hyundai price, do you?

So, I let the customer do their due diligence, but not at my expense. I do however provide them with as much information as possible before there is a need to actually go and measure - that is the beauty of internet communications.

Good luck with your contractor.


#18

[quote=“baycompany”]I am curious about the shopper’s mentality…
are you suggesting that when you start looking around
for a gynecologist or proctologist, that your comfortable with the lowest price or the best referrals?

just saying!!

David[/quote]

Proctologist!!! I look for the one that has the biggest breasts! (hey, if I need it done, it might as well be a hot babe…lol)

That said, different situation entirely…mostly because most of us dont pay for Doctors out of pocket…we are restricted who we can go to based on insurance. So I have never shopped for a doctor on price, but I have shopped for a doctor based on referals.

Do you mean to say that you NEVER look for better prices on anything?

Its unfair to assume that “shopper mentality” means JUST based on price. I shop around, and price comes into it…In my case, I went with a guy who was more $$$ but seemed to offer better referals AND more value (used roof apron (that now I dont know wasa good idea or not) and synthetic underlayment, and all aluminum soffit/fascia)… I did my homework and DIDNT base my decision on price (they were all about the same really) and STILL having some issues.

So what is a poor consumer to do??


#19

I started seeing this problem in Michigan a few years ago and when I brought it up on the internet in different roofing forums, the answer was ALWAYS, “you’re just not a good enough salesman.” but now that the problem is spreading out throughout different parts of the country, its all the customers mentality and how dumb they are.

I can say now, now that I have conquered the problem,that yes, they were right, I wasn’t a good salesman.

I say it to them now and they don’t want to hear it because now the shoe is on the other foot, but… You need to be a better salesman!!!

I call the guys who had it so good in the years past, Order Takers, because thats all they needed to know how to do, was write up the order, now when they need to have sales skills, they are lacking in that department and are lost.

Find your sales technique, practice your sales, learn sales.

You need to be a better salesman!!!

or we all need to ban together and all of us charge for estimates…and we all know thats not going to happen.


#20

[quote=“ed the roofer”]The comparison to a new car or truck is not the same.

Each dealer receives the exact same vehicle, plus or minus various options.

They only have price and vehicle reputation to sell on, plus maybe their service department.

How did the “Sales Man” treat you? That is it.

You can buy the exact same TV from Best Buy or Circuit City, so, why not shop for the best price you can get.

A roof, or any construction trade end product, are all custom made products, installed specifically for that particular home and its nuances.

I probably would not have even submitted my proposal to you, if I knew you were getting 6 “Bids”. That smells of tire kicker all the way.

I have my 31 years in roofing as my selling aspect, but there are many others who claim the same thing or more and are lying through there teeth.

My reference list looks like a mini-White Pages from the phone book.

I evaluate each and every home on an individual basis for what I know it needs or from what the customer tells me they desire to be upgraded.

Now, some other company says they will do the same thing, but the home owner is left wondering after the fact why his decision is suspect.

Time, quality and education about the intricacies of all previous roofs and the experience level to deal with surprises that come up, are a mandate for a quality job.

I, and I am pretty much alone on this, except for the guy who owns his own company and also works on every job, believe that the demise in quality standards is directly related to the jobs nearly all being subcontracted out to others. There is no vested interest from that sub, to do a quality kob and learn from one job to the next.

Anybody can buy the same shingles and nails and felt paper and nails and ventilation products, but it is the completed job and timeliness that determines the customers full satisfaction level.

None know what that will be, until they actually hire someone to provide the service.

My list of unsolicited testimonials should reinforce that concept in the minds of home owners making this choice, but they still usually opt for the cheaper bid anyways, especially this year.

How can I “Prove” to a home owner, that the quality goes into each and every job we do, just like I preach?

What information does it take, to convince a home owner, that the other guy subbing out the job and charging 7,000.00 will do a much more inferior job than I have budgeted for 8,000.00?

Too many people just think, “Well, It’s Only A Roof.” or, “All Roofs Are The Same.”

What does it take to convince them otherwise, based on your current experience?

Ed[/quote]

Did you read my post at all?

I clearly said that I DIDNT choose based on price soley and that I actually DID hire the guy with the best refs and what I figured was the best technique/value …

Its funny that you say “I wouldnt have given you an estimate if I knew that you were getting 5 others”…Are you saying that when a customer comes to you that they are supposed to just fall into your arms and go with whatever you propose based on what you tell them?

True, a car is a car is a car…and true that each contractor has a different way of doing the same job.,…I am pretty sure I already recognized that when I said that I looked at what each offered NOT just the price they offered…But like a car, getting a roof is a big expense and it still makes sense to see what the options are…in price as well as the various roofers offering their services…look at that end of it like shopping between chevy, ford, toyota etc…they are all cars but each one has good and bad points and levels of quality. The ONLY way to see the difference is to go LOOK at them and LEARN about them.

Choosing a roofer is NO DIFFERENT in my humble opinion.

ALL contractors have refereneces…and lets face it, are you going to give a reference to someone that might be a NEGATIVE one? Of course not…so, as a consumer I have to look at the referals with the proverbial grain of salt…a consuemr cannot go by just references on a piece of paper.

The stuff you ramble off as being what a person should go by (experience, quality of work, etc etc etc) is all great and I agree 100% with you…but the point I am making is that as a consumer, we only know WHAT YOU TELL US. How can we really validate ANY of your sales pitch (and it IS a sales pitch when you sit down with a potential customer and tell the mof your quality, background , etc.) without talking to OTHER roofers as well to compare and see what sounds like BS and what sounds legit?

I am clearly agreeing with you on many points, Ed.

I am about as far from being YOUR definition of a tire kicker as possible…I went with numerous estimates for the VERY REASONS you listed you are the better roofer…I was tryin gto find one that impressed me the most. Price was secondary (but still an issue). I was NOT looking for a “bargain roof”.

Turns out (as I said) that the price for all 6 bids were very close at the bottom line (individual charges for the items I needed done were a little different) so (again) I wnet with the roofer who impressed me the most with his claim of expeirence, numerous references that checked out, going to see actual roofs he did, etc.

I take offense to your inferring I was “shopping for price” because that is 100% opposite the truth.

On one hand you say that a consumer should go with the roofer that “has the most experience, blah blah blah…”…yet how is a consumer supposed to KNOw unless he gets bids and speaks with numerous roofers?