Nailing through sill flashing ( urgent reroofing concerns)


#1

Hi, I live in central Ohio and just had my 9yr. old home reroofed after damage from Hurricane Ike winds a few weeks ago.I checked out the contractor with BBB, a previous job, a reference, and he is supposed to be a Certainteed Master applicator.
A sub crew finished the job (Certainteed Landmark shingles) last friday and I have a few concerns:

  1. They reused and nailed with roofing nails through the sill flashing (about 40 feet) between the first story porch and garage roofs and the second floor sidings. Contractor said this was necessary due to flashing not lying flat on shingles. He also assured me the flashing would not be damaged from taking off old roof but that is what happened. I think flashing should be replaced due to risk of leaks, galvanic corrosion, and rust streaks down roof after nails rust.Am I right to be concerned?
  2. Crew did not use Winterguard or any other brand underlayment. Instead they used upside down 3 tabs after the drip edge and 15# roofing paper were laid down. Is this acceptable in central Ohio?
  3. My roof had 3 ridge vents, 1 running nearly full length of 2nd story, 1 on second story dormer (4ft long), and 1 on attached garage peak (4ft long). Roof also has soffit vents, 3 cap vents on shed roof side of garage/living room) and end vents below peak of garage and 2nd story dormer. Crew replaced all rooftop vents except the 4ft one on second story dormer. Contractor said this was because ridge vent on second story is sufficient and ridge vent on dormer wasn’t necessary. Should I be concerned about the loss of 4ft of ridge vent?
    In addition, they had to come back later in the day on friday to replace some sloppy drip edge work (example- on one side of the front dormer they bridged two 6 to 8 foot pieces of drip edge with a 6 inch long piece in the middle and put several dented pieces of drip edge on house).
    Contractor is coming over tomorrow and expects me to check off and pay final half of money. I will greatly appreciate any prompt good advice on how to address these concerns with the contractor tomorrow. Thanks! :?:

#2

Here is a stock picture of house. and one of of my actual roof. Thanks!
http://www.rockfordhomes.net/images/hickory.jpghttp://www.roofing.com/images/topics/6941/img_1223236995.jpg


#3

Unless youre garage is insulated, you will not need to vent it. Garages vent everytime you open them. IMO losing only 4 feet of ridge vent on the dormer should not make any noticable difference. If the Ice and Water shield was not written into the contract then they do not have to lay it. It is not a building code I believe. At least not yet. In the picture of the flashing it is hard to see because it is dark but it looks normal. If that shiny spot is a nailhead, ask him to caulk all visible nailheads including any low nails on the roof itself. I have seen people use upside down three tabs before and it should not really concern you. I would bet that is what was already on the house under the old shingles. Its really only to help hold down the first row of shingles so that shingle has something to adhere to as well as look appealing over the drip edges. We use regular starterstrip, some people use the 3 tabs. Perferences I guess. I wouldn’t worry about it. When he comes over tomorrow show him your concerns and point that stuff out to him. Do not pay him the rest until he takes the time to fix it and make sure you are 100 percent satisified. With what you said about him and the research you did, you must have felt confident about having him be the one who completes the job and he should be the type of guy who will leave with the final check once you are 100% satisifed with no concerns.

Take Care.


#4

Thanks for the advice. Here is a close up of the flashing, they did put some black sealer over the roofing nails. If nothing else I will properly seal the nails and brush paint the flashing myself.
http://www.roofing.com/images/topics/6941/img_1223238819.jpg


#5

It sounds as if everything was done to the level of common roofing practices, it should be fine.


#6

I disagree with Bam-Bam about not paying the guy.

Hold back enough money to correct the concerns you have, which should be between 5% to 10% of the original contract amount, but he seems to already have been responsive to following up and should not be kicked in the gut for some minor cosmetic items.

Ed


#7

Everything i see is normal. I would have caulked the nail heads but the ice sheild for code might be a problem. Check with your city for the building code. If ice sheild is needing to be used per code at that point you have a major problem because the homes roof was not done to code. Just a simple call to the building inspector will give you that answer.

The 4 feet is not going to really give you that much anyway if the entire ridge on the second story is done if i was reading that right.

If it needs ice and water then holding back 5 percent will not be enough hold the entire ammount for him being not doing things up to code. If you do not need it then 5 to 10 percent will do.

According to ecodes (building codes for ohio) here is what it states:

R905.2.3 Underlayment.
Unless otherwise noted, required underlayment shall conform with ASTM D 226, Type I, or ASTM D 4869, Type I.
Self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet shall comply with ASTM D 1970.

It does not clearly state that you must use ice and water shield. CALL the building inspector before you hand over a penny. Just ask him if ice and water shield is required on residential roofs and how much is needed. I am not from your area. My area requires 24 inches inside the heated wall of ice and water shield.

ASTM D 1970 Specification for Self-Adhering Polymer Modified Bituminous Sheet Materials Used as Steep Roofing Underlayment for Ice Dam Protection


#8

Yeah do what Ed said. I just figure something that simple will be done right away by the guy. If not, only withhold 5% for something that small. Take CAre


#9

i dont like to tear apart walls unless the flashing is heavily rotted.
most flashings ive ever run across have lasted 3 or more roofs.

gweedo.


#10

Thanks everyone for the input. I will go to the municipal building dept. in the morning to follow up on this. I did tell contractor before job started that certainteed’s website recommends winterguard self adhearing underlayment around edge of roof and below valleys. I also know that my insurance adjuster listed $372.00 for replacing ice/water shield in his itemized sheet. My total claim was $5400 for the job (22.5 square),the contractor was present and said amount was fair. I just want to be sure I am getting a good quality roof.

The contract does say “apply underlayment on the eaves”, but after work was done he said that the upside down 3-tab is acceptable for this area. I checked ohio ecodes and it states:
"R905.4.3 Underlayment.
In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25 ° F (-4 ° C) or less, or when Table R301.2(1) criteria so designate, an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of underlayment cemented together or of a self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from the eave’s edge to a point at least 24 inches (610 mm) inside the exterior wall line of the building. Underlayment shall comply with ASTM D 226, Type I."
I checked with NOAA and the average daily January temp for my area (Columbus, OH) for the last 30 years is 28.3 degrees F.
I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, so the local building dept. should be able to tell me if this method is acceptable in my area. Thanks Again!


#11

Yep, Go ahead and put him out of busisness
(you can save some money)

He is about to go out of business anyway with the amount he was being paid. poor guy.

If it is “code” to install ice and water shield on your street, "you got em"
or he has more work to do.

There is nothing wrong with that flashing job.
It looks good.

If you wanted that particular flashing replaced…
You already had a contract with a siding contractor
Ready to come out after he tore up the siding of your house right?

I am assuming you do have a functioning gutter above the picture your taking, otherwise the siding and window trim would be rotten. And the roof will leak way before its time. Soon. It looks real nice.
Always keep that gutter running properly.

Its 10 times more important to have a gutter above that picture than it is below that picture. :slight_smile:

If on the ground the water is splashing upon concrete or wood and then splashing against a siding or trim that rots, than you need a gutter below that picture as well.

Good looking shingle you got there. What brand is it?
30 or 40 year?


#12

roof-lover, are you serious?

About 3 weeks ago the contractor met with my adjuster and said that the $5400 estimate was fine for my 1980 sq. foot roof.

I have spoken with several other neighbors with damage and their estimates were all within $200 to $300 of mine (over or under).

The contractor did a neighbors roof in early sept. and it looked good(as far as I could see). I checked with BBB and a reference. After we met and agreed on contract, he said they’d start the next day(sept 18th). I asked him to see the proof of insurance, workers comp, and registration with building dept. It was then I found out he wasn’t registered with the city. It took him a week to get around to getting his bond to city and getting registered.(He kept saying city was causing delay, but it is city policy that you are approved when application, fee, and bond are submitted).

Initially he told me he had his own crews. A crew showed up last wed., Oct. 1st ( nearly 2 weeks after they were supposed to),and they were subs (Whites). They got on my roof long enough to bend my gutter with their ladder, then said they weren’t getting paid enough, then called contractor to argue about price, then they quit and left. Contractor then got a Mexican crew that showed up later last wed and started on second story roof. They finished on thurs while I was at work. Friday I came home and found shoddy drip edge (a 6 inch piece inserted between 2 larger pieces on front dormer being the most glaring),sill flashing was nailed through with roofing nails, and they forgot to replace shed roof on attached fireplace. Contractor came over and agreed with drip edge. he called crew back to replace 8 10Ft. pieces of drip edge and to reshingle fireplace. He said nailing through the metal sill flashing is acceptable, and when I asked him about the ice/water guard underlayment he said it’s not needed in our area.

Prior to job I had also told him about the importance of getting all of the nails out our yard ( 2 kids under 6). When I spoke with him on thurs evening (I was at work), he assured me that they spent an hour going over yard with magnet. However, Friday morning I found about 25 or 30 nails in yard. I asked him to bring back magnet and I used magnet and found another 50 or so. I know you can’t get them all, but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t telling the truth about spending an hour on thursday.

Underpaid Contractor? The first sub crew that quit said he was paying them $1300 for job.I’m sure he didn’t pay the Mexican crew any more. My Ins estimate for material was about $2000, so that means he grossed $2100 for acting as a “General Contractor” on what should have been a one day job.

I’ve been a professional firefighter for 20 years, and my personal motto has always been do it right the first time, and to see things through to their correct completion.

I spoke with the municipal building inspector and my insurance adjuster today. They both agreed that the code requires iceguard underlayment 24 inches past where the roof meets the interior wall. This is spelled out in the 2006 Ohio code.

I will now have to meet with the contractor and try to resolve this problem. I would guess that the fix is going to cost him more that the $300 or so he saved by cutting corners.

All I wanted was for a good roof at a fair price. I would have been willing to pay more than my insurance estimate if needed. I don’t want roof leaks, rotting, drywall damage, or mold.

Is this too much to ask for?


#13

[quote=“ed the roofer”]I disagree with Bam-Bam about not paying the guy.

Hold back enough money to correct the concerns you have, which should be between 5% to 10% of the original contract amount, but he seems to already have been responsive to following up and should not be kicked in the gut for some minor cosmetic items.

Ed[/quote]

My “minor cosmetic items” turned into much more than 5-10% of the job in my case.

I think it depends on how receptive the guy is.

My opinion (learned through hard knocks) – DONT PAY til you are 100% happy. Now, you have to be reasonable. But be sure you are happy.

Once he has your cash thats it.

Ask me how I know. :wink:


#14

[quote=“BHS65”]roof-lover, are you serious?

About 3 weeks ago the contractor met with my adjuster and said that the $5400 estimate was fine for my 1980 sq. foot roof.

I have spoken with several other neighbors with damage and their estimates were all within $200 to $300 of mine (over or under).

The contractor did a neighbors roof in early sept. and it looked good(as far as I could see). I checked with BBB and a reference. After we met and agreed on contract, he said they’d start the next day(sept 18th). I asked him to see the proof of insurance, workers comp, and registration with building dept. It was then I found out he wasn’t registered with the city. It took him a week to get around to getting his bond to city and getting registered.(He kept saying city was causing delay, but it is city policy that you are approved when application, fee, and bond are submitted).

Initially he told me he had his own crews. A crew showed up last wed., Oct. 1st ( nearly 2 weeks after they were supposed to),and they were subs (Whites). They got on my roof long enough to bend my gutter with their ladder, then said they weren’t getting paid enough, then called contractor to argue about price, then they quit and left. Contractor then got a Mexican crew that showed up later last wed and started on second story roof. They finished on thurs while I was at work. Friday I came home and found shoddy drip edge (a 6 inch piece inserted between 2 larger pieces on front dormer being the most glaring),sill flashing was nailed through with roofing nails, and they forgot to replace shed roof on attached fireplace. Contractor came over and agreed with drip edge. he called crew back to replace 8 10Ft. pieces of drip edge and to reshingle fireplace. He said nailing through the metal sill flashing is acceptable, and when I asked him about the ice/water guard underlayment he said it’s not needed in our area.

Prior to job I had also told him about the importance of getting all of the nails out our yard ( 2 kids under 6). When I spoke with him on thurs evening (I was at work), he assured me that they spent an hour going over yard with magnet. However, Friday morning I found about 25 or 30 nails in yard. I asked him to bring back magnet and I used magnet and found another 50 or so. I know you can’t get them all, but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t telling the truth about spending an hour on thursday.

Underpaid Contractor? The first sub crew that quit said he was paying them $1300 for job.I’m sure he didn’t pay the Mexican crew any more. My Ins estimate for material was about $2000, so that means he grossed $2100 for acting as a “General Contractor” on what should have been a one day job.

I’ve been a professional firefighter for 20 years, and my personal motto has always been do it right the first time, and to see things through to their correct completion.

I spoke with the municipal building inspector and my insurance adjuster today. They both agreed that the code requires iceguard underlayment 24 inches past where the roof meets the interior wall. This is spelled out in the 2006 Ohio code.

I will now have to meet with the contractor and try to resolve this problem. I would guess that the fix is going to cost him more that the $300 or so he saved by cutting corners.

All I wanted was for a good roof at a fair price. I would have been willing to pay more than my insurance estimate if needed. I don’t want roof leaks, rotting, drywall damage, or mold.

Is this too much to ask for?[/quote]

BHS65,

Your story and mine sound SO much alike! (Your guys name wasnt Phil, was it? LOL)

Even the nail issue.

Going through pure hell right now trying to straighten it out before the nasty weather hits (I live in SW PA)

The “contractor” who did mine kept me strung along for 4 weeks doing a roof and soffit/facia on my 20 square house…I pointed out things that seemed wrong to me all along and it was always “we’ll get that at the end”…well, “at the end” when he was packed and looking for money, none of it was done…he talked me into a holdback agreement, saying that he would be back in a week or two at most and I could pay the last remaining bit then…He took more money from me and left…never heard from him. Then he found out I was able to stop mayment on the check I had given him after he held it for over 3 weeks…THEN he calls and is all apologetic and such. Excuse after excuse as to why I hadnet heard from him for almost a month…Well, at this point we dont trust him to fix ANY of it right…he had chance after chance.

I dont know how this assclown sleeps at night.

So, my advice : BE THERE when he fixes what he has to fix…INSIST on what the contract says…if it called for iceguard, there better be iceguard. Be 1000% happy with the job before you pay the last money and he is GONE. AT least while you owe money you have some leverage.

Turns out that the money I was able to hold back just barely will pay to fix the leaks and major mechanical issues he left behind (ridge vents coming off the house)…it will cost thousands more to fix all the aesthetic issues he left behind.

And some may say “just live with the aesthetic issue…its no big deal”…well, do you buy a brand new car and accept it with dents and scratches all over it? In the same way, I dont accept that a brand new soffit/facia job should have sags and exposed wood and all sorts of other defects…I shouldnt have to pay for sloppy workmanship, nor should you.

I have found that very FEW roofers/contractors will get involved with this sort of thing…and the ones that do? Very expensive.

Save yourself grief. If you have to, pay to have another respected roofer in your area (if you can find one tha tyou trust) come in and look at the job that was done.

Some here may find that rude but hey…its YOUR money. You have to protect yourself.

I was careful but apparantly not careful enough and I will be out at least $10k due to that…unless I want to try and sue which means lawyers and all that.

PM me if you want to comapre notes further.


#15

There were thousands of nails that came off that job.
of course he ran that magnet.
And he basically let you have unlimited use of his magnet? What a nice guy. but now the next costumer is suffering because their is one less magnet on the job. Costumers do like to play with our magnets sometimes and its not an issue.

2 years ago that would have been a decent pay job if their weren’t any problems. Not so at all today.
Cost is around 5000 for that job…
thats what i call going out of business.
“Guaranteed” not to be able to service you and keep to the promise you swore to on a piece of paper.

That is a good looking shingle you got there
What brand is it? What year 30 or 40?


#16

Yeah thats called going out of business unless youre a storm chaser. The one that comes up here tells everyone we will do it for whatever your insurance pays plus an extra 500. Too bad the homeowner does not know they are from another state and will never be found again and since they bring 10-15 guys, a job is done within 8 hours. Recently I have been knocking on the peoples doors who have their sign in their front yard and telling them about what sort of company they are and more often than not, they change their mind, back out of the contract with them, and go with us. The one roof we have torn off of theirs was done two years ago and I think maybe 50 nails were actually on the nail line out of 26 sq.

Hopefully this poor roofing contractor does not associate with them and is not doing charity work because at that price, he is.


#17

[quote=“roof-lover”]

“I’m sure he didn’t pay the Mexican crew any more.”

Skin color seems to be pretty important to you.
God is pleased.

If you look elsewhere on this site you guysare always complaining about the “mexicans”…he probably picked up on that and thats why he commented…

Did he lie? Is it required by law or not?

If you look at his later posts he said he found out on his own that yes it is code there…The roofer should have known that…its the roofer’s job to know codes and such in an area if he is going to work there, NOT the consumer’s. Besides, the contract clearly stated that it would be used…and he Didnt…to save money my guess. So the roofer was wrong in both counts IMHO.

I could go either way here…

Did the roofer do a sweep or two or three? Could be. Then again who knows.

After the second week of finding nails in my grass (roof was still being done by the way) I went out and bought my own $50 magnet sweeper at Harbor Freight. I ran around with that thing for about a half hour and found a bucket of nails…this was after my “roofer” claimed he did it. After that initial sweep I found a handful or two more but very sproradically. I also rigged up a magnet to drop into my pond (about 15x15 by 3 foot deep) that is near the one building they reshingled…They were SUPPOSED to to tarp it off PRIOR to removing the old roof…Well, I found handfulls of nails/staples…

Point is that roofers do lie…or maybe stretch the truth.

Cant know for sure if he did in this case…but I know he did in MY case.


#18

It seems as if the contractor ran into problems with his first crew and took steps immediately to get another crew out in place.

After some “Minor” punch list items were brought to his attention, he responded promptly.

Verify with your local building department id the Ice and Water Shield was actually required and if so, see if it was actually installed. It comes in smooth and granulated versions.

Upside down 3 tabs is a common way for roofers to install the starter course, and even though, technically incorrect, if he did not cut off the tabs and install the adhesive lap side to the eave, it is not the most critical thing to worry about.

I have seen many homes without any starter on it at all, which would then cause wood damage.

To hold back the entire amount after he has followed up with you and done good faith remediation of your concerns, would be a real kick in this guys face.

With the exception of the Ice and Water Shield, their is nothing of substantive dollar amounts that are remaining to hold back such a high amount.

So, once you confirm if the Ice and Water Shield is either there or not there, that should be your deciding factor on the amount held back.

If it in fact is there, then a 5% retention amount would be in line, regardless of Mr/ Shandangos’ misfortunes with his contractor, who never responded to take care of things. Don’t compare 2 contractors reputations from afar and chastise this one for what some other unscrupulous shiester has done in his regard.

Ed


#19

Update: I met with Contractors assistant and went over info from building code with him. I told him to have Contractor call the building inspector and get this figured out. I gave him the page from the ohio bldg. code pertaining to underlayment and iceguard that the inspector forwarded me.

About 15 minutes later the contractor called. He became increasingly irate through the conversation, accusing me of not giving the adjuster’s estimate to him and then coming up with this concern about ice guard underlayment after the job was done. I tried to explain that the assistant was standing with me when the adjuster printed out the estimate and we both followed along as the adjuster went over it.The assistant even used the insurance estimate for the numbers when he wrote the price on contract. They could have asked for a personal copy from the adjuster then, or i could have went in the house and made a photocopy for him. the point is the company saw the info.

I also expressed concern over what certainteed’s instructions said about weatherguard and underlayment, as well as reminding him that my adjuster figured in ice guard in the estimate, so they had 2 weeks to ask for a paper copy of estimate.

The Contractor started threatening about filing construction liens and credit bureau reports against me. I said I am trying to keep this off the personal level, but if he files a lien this early in the process it will become personal and will only make this situation more difficult to resolve.

He also said that the 2006 building code only applies to new construction, not re-roofing jobs such as mine.

I again asked him to just please call the building inspector and compare their different interpretations and try to resolve the ice guard issue. Get this resolved and we can settle things tomorrow.

At first he refused to call the inspector, but finally agreed to call inspector in morning.

I told him I hope he is correct and the adjuster and inspector are wrong, so we can be finished with this.
But I would be stupid to ignore both the adjuster and city building inspectors opinion until he at least explains things to them.

We’ll see how it goes.

In my opinion if he would have carefully followed the 2006 building code and looked up the answers to my preconstruction concerns (instead of just giving me his canned response, we wouldn’t be dealing with this.

Now here’s the $2700 question?

My city does not do inspections for reshingle jobs that do not involve decking replacement.

So if the Contractor is wrong, how do I proceed because he obviously isn’t going to tear off and reshingle my second story roof. And if some reason there is a way to remove the first few courses and place ice shield, won’t that create more potential problems?

Is there anything that can be done if the roof is left on as it is now installed to prevent ice and water intrusion, for example length shingle hangs over the drip edge and gutter ?, applying a sealant between the drip edge and starter shingles? Just wondering.

Thanks again to everyone for their help.


#20

[quote=“BHS65”] he is supposed to be a Certainteed Master applicator.
A sub crew finished the job (Certainteed Landmark shingles) last friday and I have a few concerns:
[/quote]

Is a “certainteed master applicator” title something that is earned or bought? Does it extend to cheap subs hired by the “master” or is he actually supposed to be there supervising the job himself?
Regards, DaveB