Metal in Closed Cut Valley? Is this common?


#1

Recently, I noticed a couple of roofers on new homes put a thin aluminum sheet in the valley after ice & water Shield was applied. Then, covered it up in the style of closed cut method. I planned to go with closed cut valley method on my roof this month. NCRA never mentioned about installing a thin aluminum for closed cut valley. How common is this idea of putting a metal in the closed cut valley?

Here’s a good instructions on how to install closed cut valley for those who are curious. It doesn’t say about putting a metal in the valley.

roofer911.com/roofing_valleys.htm

Sounds like its a pre-cautious for extra protection.

My question is Is it a good idea?

Please share your opinions.


#2

It’s common for us although we prefer the open cut valley. It’s just extra protection, nothing more. I did the valleys like that on my dad’s house and closed cut them. It’s just “bullet proofing”.

There are several reasons for it but technically it is not needed, just good practice IMO.


#3

[quote=“Roofer”]Recently, I noticed a couple of roofers on new homes put a thin aluminum sheet in the valley after ice & water Shield was applied. Then, covered it up in the style of closed cut method. I planned to go with closed cut valley method on my roof this month. NCRA never mentioned about installing a thin aluminum for closed cut valley. How common is this idea of putting a metal in the closed cut valley?

Here’s a good instructions on how to install closed cut valley for those who are curious. It doesn’t say about putting a metal in the valley.

roofer911.com/roofing_valleys.htm

Sounds like its a pre-cautious for extra protection.

My question is Is it a good idea?

Please share your opinions.[/quote]

You need to reinforce your valleys. Whether the valleys are reinforced with 90# roll roofing, mod. bit., or metal, they need to be reinforced. Obviously, some choices are better than others; for example, I don’t like the 90# roll roofing that used to be standard.


#4

Minnesota code requires a minumal of 26 guage 16 inch wide metal used in all valleys.

I’ll run to Menards or Home Depot if I run short of roll valley.


#5

Yeah, I figured it would be for extra protection. Not a bad idea.

Would aluminum, with closed cut method, harm copper pan placed in the back of a chimney, in the middle of a valley? I assume it won’t hurt as long as I keep both metal separate by a feet or so.


#6

We never put in metal if its a shingled vally weather its closed cut,tamko vally or weaved. Quite frankly it would be stupid to. We do put Ice and water shield in every vally. When we do use metal it’s an open cut vally to show the copper. In the old days we would put roll roofing or heavey felt under the vally shingles.


#7

I always thought that metal under a closed cut valley was a leftover from the days before Ice & water shield.
Back then we would commonly lay 90# in the valley, then aluminum over that, then shingle it.

Now that we have Ice & water shield we only put metal in valleys that need to be straightened out.
Unless we use an open metal valley of course.


#8

Again, I have to use 26 guage 16 inch minumal metal in all valleys according to Minnesota code.

I think it would be stupid if I didn’t put metal in a closed valley and then had to rip up the valley and install metal because either a home owner, builder, or inspector made me.

If I stopped putting 20in 26 gauge roll metal in valleys I’d be considered a hack and wouldn’t have as much work as I do.

There has been builders over the years I’ve roofed for that wanted to see pictures of the roll valley flashing.

A couple years ago my Dad did a small addition tie in for me on a roof and the Minneapolis inspector didn’t see the roll valley flashing all the way down the center of the valley so he wanted us to rip out the valley and install metal from end to end. Turns out he ran short 2ft of metal and ran it short at the bottom in the eave. We had to rip out the whole valley and re-do. Now that was stupid.


#9

What is stupid is not updating your codes with the changing times. Your local roofing contractors association should lobby to change it.Minisota is not any worse weather than here.


#10

I always use 14" metal over the iceguard in my valleys. It is not code here. I don’t know of anyone else that does it. But, I have gone on plenty of leak calls on roofs that have only been around under ten years old and are leaking. I have taken the valleys out and have found punctures in the iceguard. The iceguard can be punctured by someone stepping in the valley. Either before or after the shingles have been installed. Their is probably less of a chance with new construction that uses sheathing of OSB or plywood. Homeowners can later go up to clean gutters and walk in the valley, and can puncture the ice-guard underneath the shingles without ever realizing it. This can all be avoided by putting the metal underneath the closed cut valley. It’s not for everybody, I guess. But, I would prefer to have my valleys bulletproof. I love it that my competition doesn’t. Their isn’t a lot of money difference in materials between a hack job, or a roof installed bulletproof. So, if it doesn’t cost that more. Doesn’t take that much more time. I will always take the extra step. In all the repairs I have done where their was a leak, I can tell you they didn’t take a few hours to make their roofs bulletproof. No roof has ever leaked because of taking extra measures. Roof leaks are only caused by roofers that have a high ego and believe that their roof won’t leak because they are the ones that installed it. Anybody can install a roof that doesn’t leak. If you are humble enough to realize that it is the extra measures and materials are what make the roofs leak proof. Not the feeling or thoughts in somemones head that thinks they are the best roofer in town and their is no way that their roof will never leak.
Without taking the extra measures like putting metal over ice-guard, etc., your roofs may or may not leak in a week, month, year, or five years. But, eventually they will. The bulletproof ones won’t. I like to sleep at night knowing that my customers payed for a bulletproof roof.


#11

So all of us that don’t flash over our ice and water are hacks?I use w-flashing,and when I don’t I don’t flash :evil:


#12

I think its not having confidence in your own workmanship to shingle a watertight vally. not one on our shingled vallys have any metal in them and they are doing just fine. I am all for going overkill to do a better job but it has to make sence. People would think you were crazy if you put metal vally down then buried it,nobody does it in this state im pretty sure,unless of course its an open vally that shows the metal.


#13

I don’t see how anybody can say “bullet proofing” a valley is stupid, that is just silly. Valleys handle the most water on a roof system period, and there is nothing wrong with giving them extra protection. Do not forget that there may very well be other people working on that roof besides experienced roofers at some point. Masons, chimney sweeps, painters, window replacers, siding installers and sat. dish installers may be walking on your work at some point in that roofs life span. They may drop tools in your valley. Most people will walk in a valley. A valley with only asphalt shingles and membrane underlayment is much more vulnerable to cracking or puncturing than one with the added protection of metal underlayment.

Roof as you like but saying I am stupid for putting metal over my ice and water before I lay my closed valley is just ludicrous. Seriously.


#14

you dont need valley metal until somone walks in a valley and pops a holes in it.

no valley metal in your own roof were no one is going to be up there is fine.
but were im at you have the termite people, painters,
tree guys, all kinds of people tropmin around up there.
you better have valley metal in your valley.
and not the paper thin aluminum.
hate that stuff.

gweedo.


#15

regional differences I suppose. some of us will have to agree to disagree on this one. It is a proven fact however that vallys can do quite fine without it.


#16

I have used it for years has always been code. Old code UBC was 20" 26 ga. Now code is IRC 24" 26 ga.However in denver they added code deleting metal in closed valleys must use 90 lb regardless of wether ice and water sheild is used.


#17

Yeah it looks that way.

I am all for overkilling the roof, but there is a point at which it just ain’t really doing anything.

If others are on your roof and poke holes in the valley, you have to repair it whether there is metal in there or not.
Valleys are pretty tough, just dropping a tool or walking on them is not going to hurt them.

I agree that metal in the valley = better.
I just don’t think it makes a difference a large majority of the time.
What makes me laugh and shake my head is the guys that put the Ice & water shield over the metal.

With all that being said, I have tore off several roofs that the metal did make the difference between leaking and not leaking.
These roofs were all well past their service life, literally falling apart…


#18

After reading all opinions, it makes perfect sense to use metal in valley. I’m going to start require it. I was told closed cut would provide the most waterproof, even though, some roofers prefer open valley style. I think closed cut is a lot easier to do than open valley…where it requires to come up with both sides in order to do a valley. That takes more time to prepare it.

Calling it stupid to use metal in closed cut valley is like going to war zone in armor truck without a bulletproof vest, assuming the truck will protect you. I would rather wear the bulletproof vest to be safe.

I see some states requires it, but why is NRCA taking so long to catch up on what’s common practice among professionals. So, others can follow up on what’s best methods.


#19

I am one of the three roofing businesses in the area that gets out the grinder and step flashes and counterflashes chimney. It takes some time to do so, A lot more time than throwing down a piece of metal in the valley. A very inexpensive and quick method to make a lot better valley. A roll of fourteen inch galvanized is about twenty five bucks for fifty foot. Fifty cents a foot.
If I didn’t do many shingle roofs a year, than I might think differently about it. My company does well over a hundred shingle roofs a year. So, if five percent of my roofs have a problem five years down the road. That isn’t a bad percentage for five hundred roofs. The problem is I could have twenty five roofs within five years that could need re-done or need re-worked. Point being, I may be a little anal about a lot of things and it may be overkill to do some of the things I do. My competition doesn’t use ice-guard under their step flashing, or around penetrations, or chimneys. My competition doesn’t use ridgevent because the one he tore off didn’t have it and was fine. I still install it anyways. My competition uses tar on the top of their counter-flashing on the chimney. I use a Polyurethane/Np1. Some in my area use no ice-guard or they use only a roll three feet in length, even if the overhang is large, and you need a roll and a half to two rolls wide to get two foot past the interior warm wall. I make sure I am always two foot past the interior warm wall always because that is code up north were I live. A lot of the roofs that I have torn off haven’t had any ice - guard previously installed the first time and was fine. I still install it. Some in my area don’t use iceguard on some enclosed porches/patio’s because they are not heated. I do, because I have seen where they didn’t use it and a few years down the road the homeowner decides to heat and finish off the room. A lot in this area use gun nailable ridge vent combined with nailable cap. I use cobra snow country 4’ pieces and hand nail the cap with three inch nails, because the ridge gets the most wind. I use starter strip on the eaves and up the rake. I also use six nails instead of four. These two things in combination gets twenty more miles an hour warranty on GAF/Elk. I use buttonkaps instead of just staples. I use a shingle that costs a few bucks more a square than the other brands most of my competition uses. Some keep chimney flashing and paint it to look new. I always replace it.

I know that these things and a lot more that I do can be considered overkill. For me they are as important as having a General Liability Policy. I have never had to use the policy, it helps me sleep better since I have it.
I can’t afford to not be overkill. We do a lot of volume. Quality control is and overkill are just a few of my favorite words. lol.
I am not trying convince anyone to do these things. I prefer my competition does not do any of these things. I hope their nails don’t hit the nail line either. lol. I get a handfull of newer roofs to replace from former roofers that had some minor mistakes cause big problems. Being extremely picky isn’t for everybody. Most all of the time it isn’t neccessary. I would rather be the anal guy that I am. To each their own.

Onarooftop
:smiley:


#20

Hello,

I have been keeping up with this post and feel that I should say something.

I have been roofing for 20 years and have done 1000s of valleys. Other than using w-style for open valleys I have installed metal in maybe 20 valleys. I have only had to chase a leak in 1. My point is if you know how to install a valley it shouldn’t leak. Ice & Water Shield has has only gotten popular in the last 10 to 15 years.
Onarooftop- I have read your posts on this forum and a few others and I feel you are very knowledgeable but I was offended that you said if I don’t put metal in the valley I am a hack. I am probably more anal than you when it comes to roofing but I feel confident in my ability as a roofer. I do want to say that after reading your last post I am not that offended that much anymore. As you said To each their own.

Keith