Incorrect installation


#1

We recently had a roof installed. The crew was very unreliable and didn’t seem to be doing a very professional job. We had a friend who knows more about roofing than we do looked at it, and said there were a lot of problems. We had photos taken and showed them to the company owner. He said the installation was within the manufacturer’s specifications.

I contacted the manufacturer, and in a nutshell, it is not. Beyond that, there was just some shoddy workmanship may cause damage to the house.

We had an inspector come out (his company will not be doing the work so, we feel he’s being up-front with us) and he told us it was poorly done, out of spec and wouldn’t be covered by the manufacturer’s warranty should we ever have to file a claim. He also said we shouldn’t wait to long to address the issues, it’s that bad.

We contacted the owner and told him we had an assessment of the roof and would share with him the written report and discuss options. He is now threatening us - liens, lawyers, etc.

As a home owner who’s looking at a double digit expense, we felt it was within our right to make sure the job was done properly.

How do these things normally end? What’s the best way to proceed?

Thanks for any help you can provide.


#2

your going to have to go to court. Basically if you do not pay him he can put a lein on your home. If the roof is done incorrectly call the city inspector out to look at it. With that then you have a case if another roofing company looked at the job that wont work. Call the city and have them look at it.


#3

As far as I know, a lien is only useful if the owner plans to sell the house. Then the contractor can enforce his claim. But I am not a lawyer so don’t rely on that statement.

One scenario: you go to court and end up paying the contractor half of what the job is worth because of the poor work. Then you pay the lawyers a third of the total roof cost and the contractor will have to pay his lawyers the same. Then you need to get your roof re done or repaired extensively and pay all over again.

I suggest getting a few estimates to repair, if possible, the work. Get the work done. Deduct that from the first contractors bill and pay him the balance. Minus expenses.

Try to get a consensus on the extent of repairs needed and be reasonable.

Hope that helps. ( and hope that makes sense )


#4

Thanks for your replies. We don’t really want to have to go to court, but are prepared to if it’s unavoidable.

Here are a couple (of the many) areas that look bad. We can’t believe anyone would consider this a proper install. Any opinions?

http://am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/100_3312.JPG

http://am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/100_3314.JPG

http://am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/100_3310.JPG


#5

Based on your photos, it doesn’t look like the roofing contractor has very many major issues.

Your first photo shows a shingle exposure that is greater than what is specified, but if the nails are in the nail line and are not exposed, it will probably be alright. However, the nails need to penetrate the shingle in the nail line, and the top of the underlying shingle, which may not have happened on that row.

The offset in the shingles shown in the second photo is not uncommon where roofers install shingles on two sides of a dormer, and then are off a little when the get to the top of the dormer.

The third photo shows a split in the shingle that covers the end of the dormer ridge. Once again, not a major deal, but not uncommon either.

Now, here is what I would do. I would contact the roofing contractor and tell them that you want to pay them for the work completed, but you would like them to make a few repairs. Tell them you will hand them a check when the repair work is completed, and then do it if they agree to this arrangement. Have them address the few minor issues, and then be done with the whole deal. If they don’t want to make the repairs, tell them to send it to you in writing, whether they do or not, send them a letter stating that you are going to hire another roofing company to make the necessary repairs and will back-charge the original company for the repair work. Deduct the second contractor’s bill from what you owe the original contractor, and send the original contractor the balance due. Make sure the second contractor and/or you photo documents the repair work, and get time cards substantiating your claim for the back-charge against the first contractor. Don’t go behind the first contractor’s back, let them know what actions you are taking, and give them the opportunity to right any wrongs. All in all, without seeing an overview photo, it does not look like the roofing job was that terrible. It certainly didn’t look like a job you would need to go to court over. Is it leaking?

Finally, as a roofing consultant, I would suggest you may want to hire a roofing consultant to take a look at your roof and provide you a written report. Make sure the consultant is only a consultant, and not a roofer who also claims they do consulting. You will want and need an unbiased third-party’s opinion if you want to properly protect your own interests.

Do you have any more photos?


#6

Here are two shots of an issue we haven’t been able to get acknowledged. When the roof was torn off, there were wood shakes around the edge of the roof to ensure a proper angle going to the gutters. Those were removed and no material was added to ensure the proper pitch. As a result, we have this cupping/‘soup bowl’ around the edge of the house.

We believe this may hold water, snow and ice and cause the shingles, and underlying roof deck to rot. Additionally, we are in a windy area, and any standing water in this area could well be blow underneath the next course of shingles before it drains into the gutter.

Cerberus: Please check your messages on this site.

http://www.am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/web/100_3308.JPG

http://www.am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/web/100_3322.JPG


#7

Was a drip edge used at the gutter or an apron? Apron is “L” shaped with an off angle, and drip is kinda T shaped (looking down the end of the piece) with one leg longer.

Looks like drip edge to me.


#8

Drip edge.


#9

this is one of the big reasons not to use drip edge on the drain edge of the roof. it is ok on the gable if you need it, but never on the gutter edge.


#10

the first thing that sticks out to me is the fact you have a freind that knows
roofin and you didnt have him/her do it.
in the future i would advise using that person to atleast over see the work.
but judgin from the pics said roofer will not have a hard time provin his case. ive seen alot worse.
the area at the bottom of roof at gutter is what i call a ski slope.
its not the type of metal used that causes this. its the way it is installed.
so heres the deal.
you seem to know the areas and issues, and it sounds like you have some of mr knuckhead roofers money.
this is a good time to get your , common , problems fixed.
tell the roofer youll pay him the secound he fixs the evedrip, ties in the cap better at the top of the valley, caulks all exsposed nails( im sure theres a few), fix any tears in shingles.
9 times outta ten the roofers gonna fix the stuff, to get his/her
money.

good luck.

gweedo.


#11

The bottom edge of the roof had cedar shingles NOT to assure proper roof pitch but to A.) extend the roof past the fascias to provide the right overhang for drainage; and/or B.) to fill a gap between the bottom edge of the sheathing and fascias. I say due to the cupping the answer is “B” as the cupping leads me to believe they had not much choice where they could catch with a nail. Another cause of the cupping could simply be that they pushed the drip-edge too tightly to the fascia and nailed it.

One of those pictures that you showed looking down the gutter leaves me to believe that these guys were in a big hurry. There are a few schools of shingling out there that I’ve seen. One, I call the carpenter/roofer, and he will always chalkline every single line. I suppose the carpenter already has the work and he can charge top dollar since he’s already there, but I don’t have time to chalk every single line. Your second school of thought to shingling is that houses are settled, so they “split the difference”, meaning that they’ll check every so often to the peak to see how straight theyre coming into it and, using the lines on the paper, try to cheat the shingles in the direction they need to straighten it. This is how I was taught but I abandoned it. The third one that I’ve taken on is just that you make sure every single shingle you put on is where it needs to be on both ends of the shingle and eventually at the top it is still straight as an arrow. This crew is using the “split the difference” method, but theyve gone overboard to the point of not caring when the bottom course isnt even straight. Thats just hack work as far as esthetics are concerned. It LOOKS like it was roofed by a child.

Also, dont know who did your gutters, but you’re missing gutter sealant around the gooseneck.


#12

[quote=“kwill”]Here are two shots of an issue we haven’t been able to get acknowledged. When the roof was torn off, there were wood shakes around the edge of the roof to ensure a proper angle going to the gutters. Those were removed and no material was added to ensure the proper pitch. As a result, we have this cupping/‘soup bowl’ around the edge of the house.

We believe this may hold water, snow and ice and cause the shingles, and underlying roof deck to rot. Additionally, we are in a windy area, and any standing water in this area could well be blow underneath the next course of shingles before it drains into the gutter.

Cerberus: Please check your messages on this site.

http://www.am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/web/100_3308.JPG

http://www.am4sq.com/Home%20Renovation/Roof/web/100_3322.JPG[/quote]

Ive seen this happen when the gutter spikes are too high and get in the way of the drip edge… if the roofer was too lazy to notch the drip metal or do something else and if he set the drip metal like that causing the fornt to kick up… then this happens but cant really tell from this pics

In an overall diagnostic i say is not as terrible as to have to re do it all… from this few pictures… Is not the best workmanship ive seen…

but i also agree with gweedo i dont know how many people have come up and said :

"my uncle,friend,neighboor,etc… knows roofing and he checked out the roof "

well with all due respect you should have had him do the job then if you had trust in him and his knowledge . Or if at least have him swing by the job while in progress and not when is completed


#13

Hi,

We snap every line. All I do is roofing.

We have roofs that are framed with that look in mind. It will not leak.

Just ask him to fix the torn shingles. And seal any exposed nails.

Tell your friends to go and look at the contractors work before hiring them. Just call their office and ask were his crews are working right now. I tell you right on my webite call the office and we will give you the address of were we are . Come out and sit down the street and watch us work.


#14

We have a friend who knows roofing. Doesn’t do it anymore.


#15

The type of T drip metal that most use cuz its available almost anywhere has very little bearing on the roof deck in situations with a plumb cut fascia.

In oder for the face of the drip edge to sit flush on the fascia, it has to pop up at some point or have the top bend adjusted. Nobody ever bends the top bend outward cuz its a royal pain in the azz.

It would be much easier, better looking, and more conducive to waterflow to use a gutter apron bent to the specific angle. Heck, even the store bought apron is better than the drip edge.


#16

Alright, after viewing more photos I’ve got to admit the job is worse than I initially thought.

kwill, I reponded to your message with a message back to you.


#17

Fascia too high. Decking has sagged.

If it’s there in Ohio like here in NW Indiana there may not even be a rafter within 6 ft. of that hip. And either way, nobody shimmed the deck for proper drainage. The previous wood shingles bridged the gap. The asphalt shingles sag into it.

I can send you pictures of how WE rectify this issue kwill.
We’ve just had this issue on our lat 2 jobs AGAIN.


#18

twill59: I am sending you my email address via private message. Any info you can provide would be helpful.

Putting aside the bad roofing job (as if that’s possible), one of the most frustrating things has been the fact that we have not been believed or taken seriously when we have brought these issue to the attention of 1) the roofing crew boss 2) the salesman 3) the owner of the construction company 4) the manufacturer 5) our dog, Spot. Okay, the last one was an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. We have had to fuss, bitch, moan and drag folks onto the roof before they will believe us.

For example, when we showed photos to the owner, he said things were within spec. That’s it. He didn’t say, ‘let’s get on that roof and take a look’ or anything. Just ‘it’s okay, give me my check.’

Additionally, we told the company at the time we signed the contract that anything that needed to be done to the roof would be considered. We only wanted to do the roof once. If we had needed to replace every piece of wood on it, we would have done so. So to know that there were things that should have been done (regardless of cost) and weren’t; or that there were options that would have been better (e.g. an apron rather than a drip edge) that weren’t discussed with us is frustrating.

I don’t think that a customer should have to be an expert on a subject in order not to be ripped off when they hire a job out . We knew the basics; but we have had to do so much research just to stay a little bit ahead. Follow that with the fact that you can’t sit up on the roof and watch every single thing that goes on.

The worst part of it is, for all you honest contractors out there, it’s experiences like this that hurt everyone’s reputation and causes homeowners to be hesitant and distrustful of the next job.

I do want to thank all of you again for your support and willing to educate us. You’ve been great! By the way, I’ll be putting a post up over the weekend on repairing plaster…tell your friends…because we surely need some expert advice on that!


#19

for me the edge metal( whatever kind ya want to use), rides with the deckin not the fasha. in other words, were u nail the edge metal, make sure its flat against the deckin.

i do however think that she has fasha board higher than her deck,
thus needin the wood shakes that dum dums took out and didnt replace.

ive found it better to try and raise deck other than lower fasha in this situation.

gweedo.


#20

I also think the fascia board probably extends above the plane of the roof deck. However, this is not the biggest issue on her roof. If you saw all the photos that I’ve been shown, you would have bigger issues with the shingle exposure. All in all, it was not a good shingle roof installation.