Ice & Water Removal?


#1

The topic may sound a little stupid, but here is the problem:

I am having a metal roof installed, where the contractor has promised Titanium-UDL 50 and Ice & Water protection. I live in Michigan and have had some Ice & Water Damage.

In review of the build up I noted that the contractor was using UDL 30 (less than spec.) and investigated the Ice & Water (Carlisle CCW WIP 100) as a result only to find out “CCW WIP 100 should not be used under metal roofs” per the manufacturers statement.

So the question is how is Ice & Water removed?

Are there other recommendations?

Your help and direction is appreciated.


#2

ice & water shield is not designed to remove ice or water…it is designed to protect against the damages that ice & water cause. to remove ice build up you need proper ventilation & insulation. so in easy terms. ice & water shield protects…ventilation & insulation prevents


#3

Marshall, I think what the question is about refers to removing the I & W product from the roof deck, not the actual water & ice that would form.

Have you spoken to your contractor about the 30 vs. 50 substitution? It’s possible the incorrect product was delivered, however I suspect it was a case of the contractor spending less $$.

I haven’t ever used UDL (just about can’t find it down here in Texas for me to compare to or even try for the heck of it)… I’m unfamiliar with the differences between 30 & 50.


#4

oohhhh…well, if it has sealed, then the only way i know is replace the plywood. i use UDL 30 all the time. i have never even seen 50. i dont think any of my suppliers offer it.


#5

You are correct RanchHand. The installed I & W is the wrong type for under a metal roof, per the manufacturer of the I & W.

Marshall, is removal of the plywood sheeting the only method to remove the I & W? My primary concern with the I & W is that it should not be used under a metal roof and I do not know what the long term effects will be. There are grades of I & W recommended for under metal roofs such as Carlisle CCW WIP 300HT.

The difference between Titanium UDL 50 and UDL 30 is mil thickness and warranty with the 30 at 30 years and the 50 at 50 years. And yes the contractor has been advised of both these issues, where he has stated that he will make it right.

I need to know what the right thing to do is?

Thanks


#6

lostroof,

I am currently removing a copper flat seam soldered roof with I&W under. In some spots the I&W is stuck to the copper, the previous installers soldered the copper without any separation sheet, and the plywood is coming up (plys are separating) with the copper and I&W membrane. Real PITA.

The difference in the I&W grades is that the HT is high temperature. Metal roofs get hot and the low grade I&W can melt and run.


#7

dennis, that answers what the risk is - melt and run - and we don’t want that to happen.

I guess I have no alternative but to ask the contractor to replace all the plywood sheeting at his cost to make it right. Guess this roof can be considered as the roof from h*** for both me and the contractor.

Thanks


#8

You could just cover the I&W with a seperation sheet like red rosin felt. no need to rip it off.


#9

Hi,

I use red rosin paper even with the ones that are rated for metal roofs.

I do not want the metal sticking to the membrane.


#10

rooferJ and lefty - witll the red rosin paper keep the I&W from melting and leaching from the eave and gable ends?

Also if it melts and runs, what kind of I&W protection will it offer over time?

Thanks


#11

If the correct high temp I&W is used it will not melt. At least its not supposed to.


#12

Even though the wrong ice & water shield was used your roof will more than likely be just fine.
If you were to go to the extreme of replacing the ice & water shield just sheet over the top of it, don’t try to remove it and to remove and replace all the decking is unnecessary labor.
I think that you will run into a lot of resistance if you demand that he remove the ice & water shield and the decking at his expense…
While metal roofs get very hot in the summer and the heat *can melt the Ice & water shield it doesn’t mean that it *will…
If it was Standard Grace\Vycor Ice & water shield I would say that it probably will melt, but it isn’t, it is a cheap knock off brand of Ice & water shield that is not made the same way and it is more like a sticky felt than a true Ice & water shield.
So in reality there really isn’t anything there to melt and run in the first place…
If you do replace the Ice & water shield use Certainteed HT or Vycor ultra.
All this talk of removing the metal roof then removing the decking is silly.
Your roofer made a mistake (or got caught cutting corners) and people on this forum seem pretty eager to nail his balls to the wall, you should get something out of this though but what is being proposed is rather extreme.
How is the overall quality of the installation?


#13

adding to axiom’s post

You may only need to do the south and/or west facing areas. Those in direct sunlight for an extended period of time.


#14

Like I said a slip sheet of rosin felt is all thats needed, it will be fine. Making him rip the plywood is just being a ball breaker.


#15

Axiom

You ask how is the overall install going:

Since I am going to a metal roof and do not believe in build-ups (job is only as good as its foundation) and knowing I have some water damage along the eaves the job was to replace any bad areas. This was allowed for at the tune of $43/sheet installed, knowing that the cost of 5/8 CDX is less than $20/sheet.

The replaced sheathing consisted of using a double layer of 1/4 inch, where at least one of the patch areas has a hole the size of my fist next to it!!

During the tear off one section of eave trough was damaged.

Specification called for Titanium UDL-50 underlayment and I&W to be used. Titanium UDL-30 was used and investigation into the Carlisle CCW WIP 100 I&W shows that it should not be used under a metal roof.

And to top things off at this point there is not one piece of the metal roofing system on the site (due in Wednesday).

So based on the above, how do you think the install is going?

My focus is not to nail the guys b**** to the wall, but to determine a viable method to correct the the I&W issue and at the same time provide a long lasting (compatible with the roofing system warranty) I&W shield for the home, without having to worry about it melting and running or leaching.

To accomplish this if it takes new sheathing then so be it. If it can be scraped back without destroying the existing sheathing that is OK too. If it can be gone over with another product that will preclude the identified issues and maintain warranty, then that may be a way to go, noting that going over other products void most warranties.

Again, I’m just looking for a best viable resolution (what to do) for an incorrect/incompatible I&W being laid down.

Thanks


#16

Hi,

The replaced sheathing consisted of using a double layer of 1/4 inch,

This is worthless. Do not let him cover this up.

If I was replacing your wood you would be paying $90 a sheet for 1/2". He can not replace for $43 and stay in bussiness without cutting corners. If he used a double layer of 1/4" to replace 1/2". I would be real concerned about the rest of the job.

I do not see the need for ice and water on a metal roof. Code makes us do it.


#17

I was under the impression that the roof was already completed… :?

If the Carlisle I&W has only been on for a couple of weeks it will probably come off without ruining the deck.
If this is the case you should have it removed and all of the fixes addressed correctly.
Is the entire roof Ice & water shield?
I have been told by architects that we should not Ice & water shield the entire roof because it creates a vapor barrier.
Makes sense to me but I think it is building specific…

That is normal for some metal roofs, is it standing seam?

Without seeing the actual site conditions I can’t really comment on that too much, we try to avoid it as much as possible but some times other things get broken…

The cost difference between 2 sheets of 1\4" and 1 sheet of 1\2" is minimal at best and I would think that 2 x 1\4" would be more than 1 x 1\2"?
More labor to install 2 instead of one?
It don’t make no sense to me…
Yes you should use the correct wood also, this wasn’t mentioned before.

It kinda sounds like you went with the lowest bidder…


#18

OK,

This is what my approach is going to be:

After experimenting with a piece of the I&W on a piece of scrap plywood, I find when it is in the sun and hot it can be lifted. So this will be the primary focus for the I&W and replace it with Titanium 50 PSU.

The bad wood needs to be replaced with the proper material. If this takes 3, 6, or 20 sheets so be it, it’s my cost. The cost is irrelevent, although I may add that $90 per sheet sounds excessive noting the retail cost locally is $18.99 at Menards for 5/8 CDX and it does not take a lot of time to pop out an old sheet and put a new one down. I am not puting 3/4 AA oak cabinet grade on the roof.

The current Titaniun UDL 30 will have to be replaced with Titanium UDL 50 per the documented specification.

As for lowest bidder - not the case. The metal roofing system manufacture sent a local factory representative/distributor to me for pricing and installation. I did not get any additional quotes or ask for any price reduction, since the system requires a factory trained installer and no local company carries the material or maintains the trained installer required for the warranty. FYI I am paying about 3 times the cost of a normal 30 year architectual shingle job (less than 30 square and removal of old). And for those interested it is an interlocking steel shingle system used without battens.

Thanks Again


#19

A ‘good’ metal roof will normally price out @ 2½ - 3½ times the price of a 30 year shingle, so the cost variable @ 3x seems logical to me (not seeing any photos, this is all an assumption of course).

I use OSB all the time & am not adverse to even using it on my own projects (used a ReflecTix OSB on a 12x12 tack room & chicken coop for myself, so there ya go). ¼" “True” plywood is more expensive than the ½" OSB, so it’s definitely in my opinion to go back with the ½" variety (you mention 5/8", so not sure what you will have as your final product).

I do think somewhere along the line the contractor or his minion thought maybe you wouldn’t be paying attention to the finer details & that’s where he got bit in the @ss… good for you to watch what’s going on, but bad for you that the contractor tried to cut corners on you.

Feel free to name names or @ least contact the supplier who recommended them & spill the beans.


#20

Lostroof:

Not to bust balls, but $90 a sheet includes labor for tearing off the old and replacing new. After replacing 11 or 12 sheets on my own roof project, I’m glad I saved a grand on install charges, but Good Lord is that work.