High Nailing?


#1

I hear a lot about “high nailing” I’m doing my own roof and don’t understand why guys would place the nails in the wrong place? If you put in 4 or 6 nails anyway what is the incentive to place them in the wrong spot? Is it easier to nail high than nail correct? What am I missing in my understanding of this subject? Is there any difference in the nailing characteristics that could make one choose between 30 year timberlines and 30 year landmarks?
Regards, DaveB


#2

I just watched a video on a site www.reesewholesale.com that was recommended for shingle pricing by a member on this forum.

It is a good review for anyone I would think but especially for homeowners wanting to understand more about what constitutes a quality job.

It demonstrates high nailing and what can happen to the shingle as a result.

Michele


#3

High nails aren’t on purpose (unless maybe the homeowner & someone on the crew knew each other & have a feud going on… ;)).

For an experienced crew member, a typical high nail is the result of too much speed & too little care.

Plain & simple.


#4

[quote=“RanchHandRoofing”]High nails aren’t on purpose (unless maybe the homeowner & someone on the crew knew each other & have a feud going on… ;)).

For an experienced crew member, a typical high nail is the result of too much speed & too little care.

Plain & simple.[/quote]

Not always the case. Some roofers that don’t know better and/or just haven’t been taught properly, reason that installing the nails higher will prevent water from blowing up beneath the shingle and making it to the nail. They don’t understand that 4-nailing or 5-nailing a shingle actually means there are 8 or 10 nails per shingle. I understand why they would think that way, but the thinking is flawed. Just like on three-tabs when people nail on the asphalt strip, instead of below the strip. The thinking is the asphalt will seal around the nail head, but in reality you would be high-nailing.


#5

Cerb, you have a PM.


#6

Certainteed offers the Landmark in my region with the Widetrack nailing area. As long as you basicly nail into the shingle under the one you are nailing you are ok for the full wind warranty. This was done to make installation easier for the installers.

Myself and my crew all nail in the double section.

On roofs 21/12 and up you have to nail in the double section of the Landmark.

Not sure what GAF/ELK calls for, only lay one or two roofs with those shingles per year.


#7

[quote=“dougger222”]Certainteed offers the Landmark in my region with the Widetrack nailing area. As long as you basicly nail into the shingle under the one you are nailing you are ok for the full wind warranty. This was done to make installation easier for the installers.

Myself and my crew all nail in the double section.

On roofs 21/12 and up you have to nail in the double section of the Landmark.

Not sure what GAF/ELK calls for, only lay one or two roofs with those shingles per year.[/quote]

We call it the cheater line and don’t use it.


#8

Ok, So I’ll take it slow and make sure I’m nailing in the doubled area or where ever the instructions say to nail. Now what if the nailing line falls on a plywood seam? Should I then nail a bit high as close to the line as possible or is it better to move up further into the plywood sheet to keep the nail from pulling out? I’ll be using a senco gun
regards, DaveB


#9

Dave,
IMO, Gaf/Elk TIm. Prestique High Def. is the way to go…Also nailing as the man. states on the inside of the bundle wrapper, you will not be sorry. As far as the gap in then plywood, it is hard to tell if you are not hitting plywood with a gun, if you are not experienced . After a while you can hear and feel and see if the nails are grabbing meat…if you have to on a row or too,all you can do is nail a little high. With Tim. shingles you must nail the line!
Take your time,and nail the line and speed will come.
By the time you finish,you will be nailing fast,and proper. You will either be glad it is over,or you will be calling your buddies to see if they want you to do their roof too…lol… Good luck!


#10

Hi,

The nailing zone on the shingles is only good up to a 7/12 pitch. After that the shingles will de laminate and slide apart. The nails are for wind, they also hold the shingles together.

Ceberus, I am suprised by the 8 nails to a shingle. Those extra 4 nails to a shingle from the next shingle do nothing to hold the shingle on the roof.

The jacklegs around here use that as a selling point, that they put 8 nails in a shingle. LOL

If the shingle is blowing off past the first 4 nails those next line of nails are not going to do a thing.


#11

[quote=“jwoolfsroofing”]Dave,

By the time you finish,you will be nailing fast,and proper. You will either be glad it is over,or you will be calling your buddies to see if they want you to do their roof too…lol… Good luck![/quote]

Thanks, Jwoolf, Actually I did this same roof about 25 years ago with 3 tab shingles and it dint leak so this will be my second and probably last roofing job as I'll be 88 in 25 more years. I will miss the view and peace and quiet up there but I'll be glad to finish and get inside and start putting down some new bamboo flooring that's been stacked in my living room all summer.
 I'm gonna let my wife decide on the prestique hi defs or the landmarks based on her color preference, sounds like either one will be satisfactory structurally.

Regards, DaveB


#12

[quote=“Lefty”]Hi,

The nailing zone on the shingles is only good up to a 7/12 pitch. After that the shingles will de laminate and slide apart. The nails are for wind, they also hold the shingles together.

Ceberus, I am suprised by the 8 nails to a shingle. Those extra 4 nails to a shingle from the next shingle do nothing to hold the shingle on the roof.

The jacklegs around here use that as a selling point, that they put 8 nails in a shingle. LOL

If the shingle is blowing off past the first 4 nails those next line of nails are not going to do a thing.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying, but not all wind takes shingle roofs off from the bottom up. You have to consider wind uplift.

Lets say the shingles are adhered along the asphalt strip as designed, and even properly nailed. Wind coming over a roof can be like wind over an airplane wing. It will actually suck the surface of the roof upwards, and positive pressure in a house can increase the effect.

On high rises, the wind tends to come overtop the parapet like a wave. The part of the wind that curls back under actually creates uplift on the roof. Here is an example of what can happen if you don’t have sufficient ballast/securement:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l187/Cerberus1960/IMG_2598-1.jpg

Of course, when designing a roof you have to also consider parapet heights, building height, ground roughness, building location with regard to shorelines, etc.

Anyway, with shingles if you don’t 8 or 10 nail the shingles, wind can more easily draw the shingles upward away from the roof deck. Not something you have to worry about very much unless you get tornadoes, hurricanes or high straight-line winds.


#13

Hi Cerberus,

You will have to explain how the nails in the back of the shingle give the shingles uplift resistence.

Wind coming down slope on the shingles would not have a starting point. So the nails could be placed anywhere.

So I am scratching my head trying to see the scenerio where the 4 nails at the 10" line would hold the shingle on the roof.


#14

[quote=“Lefty”]Hi Cerberus,

You will have to explain how the nails in the back of the shingle give the shingles uplift resistence.

Wind coming down slope on the shingles would not have a starting point. So the nails could be placed anywhere.

So I am scratching my head trying to see the scenerio where the 4 nails at the 10" line would hold the shingle on the roof.[/quote]

Think more along the lines of the shingles being sucked off the roof rather than blown off the roof. The wind isn’t attacking the edge of the shingle, but is actually pulling upwards on the shingle roof surface like a vacuum.

Like I said before, in general you are correct, but you have to install properly to ensure against the worst case scenario. Not to mention not complying with the manufacturer’s requirements, which gives them an out with regard to warranty issues.


#15

Cerb is correct & I have seen plenty of hurricane peeled roofs to that effect (sucking them off).

It’s not one single fast gust that will get 'em; more like the constant tugging & pulling on the shingle & eventually one or two particular shingles just can’t take the constant working back & forth @ a few nail spots & then it’s gone.

Once you lose one shingle, the rest above it are like dominoes, even if they were held in correctly… & NOW you finally have a leading edge issue.


#16

Hi Ranchhand,

You are not discribing a vacumn. You are discribing the wind attacking the edge of the shingle.


#17

How many roofers have ripped off a roof that was nailed to manufacturers specs?
It is like pulling teeth… I can count on 1 hand the ones I have seen…On a job that I had the builder supplied the materials,I (Never checked the color delivered) started the bottom 3’ off a plank and ladder jacks(steep). I got across to the end,and the shingles 6bundles were different. They delivered 2 colors. I called the supplier to find the true color was not what I started with!
I ripped them off ((^&@^()as fast as I could…It was the worst tear off I had ever done!
I have torn off 3 layers from 3/4 oak t&g planks, that is what I would compare it to…
So I do see the difference of nailing the nail line,and high nailing!
Try it some time…
The hard fact is that if you don’t care,and you have been high nailing in the past,you will not take the time to re-train yourself to nail properly!


#18

[quote=“Lefty”]Hi Ranchhand,

You are not discribing a vacumn. You are discribing the wind attacking the edge of the shingle.[/quote]

I think he is trying to say the samething as I am. Think of the shingle roof sort of like a rag top on a car. As you drive faster down the road the rag top tends to get sucked upwards from the fast moving air that travels over the car. Likewise, fast moving air over a ridge or parapet can create lift on the shingles that exerts an upwards force. As Ranch stated, once you lose a shingle that way, then you have exposed edges that start to peel away like playing cards. The point being, often times the shingles don’t start to “go” along the roof perimeter, but instead the loss starts several feet down from the ridge.


#19

Hi Cerberus,

I have never seen the shingles sucked off the roof on the oppisite side of the roof from the prevailing wind direction.

The shingles have always been torn off on the side hit by the wind.

I do not see where the shingles being torn off in the middle of the roof has anything to do with a vacumun affect.

High nailing and/or bad adhesive have been the colprits in the cases I have seen.


#20

Lefty, no offense @ all, but the wind effects you will see in Pennsylvania are nothing @ all like a hurricane force wind that is sustained for upwards of 2 hours.

Have you ever seen images on TV of a mountain peak & high winds rolling over it, snow curling over the peak & creating a back swirl? That’s the closest I can think of & I tried to find something on YouTube to show you but no success (I think there have been Discovery Channel or National Geographic shows discussing mountain climbers).